Episode #35 - Fred Fugen

Fred Fungen

Laurent: [00:00:00] Hello friends, you're listening to Exit Point, a podcast about the advancement of BASE jumping and an exploration of its culture. I'm Laurent Frat, producer and cohost. If you would like to support this independent production, you can visit our, buy me a coffee link in the description and give us a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

Laurent: In this episode, I speak with Fred Fugin. A pioneer of modern parachuting and one of the most talented and innovative skydivers, wingsuit pilots, and base jumpers on the planet. Fred has won multiple world championships in free flying, set several world records in base jumping and wingsuit flying, and has executed some of the most incredible aerial stunts ever performed.

Laurent: Today, I want to talk to Fred about how it all started. What motivates him to push the boundaries of human flight and how he copes with the risks and losses that come with his passion. With that, let's get Fred on the [00:01:00] track.

Laurent: You've been involved in so many incredible projects that are really creative. I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about this process of, Discovering the ideas that come with the projects. anywhere from, I think the one that really captured my imagination and excitement the most, was, you jumping off of the young frow and landing inside of the airplane.

Laurent: this was just like, so spectacular. And, I remember like almost raising my hand, cheering, like it was like, Oh my God, cause you. You guys were tried once and the tried twice and there was a failure. And so there was really this sense of buildup of like you guys trying to get there and then bam, you did it.

Laurent: And it was like everybody, the pilot, the people in the plane, everyone was just like cheering and it was so exciting. And, but that's just one of many. [00:02:00] so I'm wondering, and it's not just for base jumping and wingsuiting, free flying and, canopy flying and all of these different projects that you've been a part of.

Laurent: I like to just have a glimpse of inside your process for discovering the idea of what you can do and then the training that goes behind it and then the execution. So let's just start with the ideas, like how did these ideas come to you? 

Fred Fugen: the ideas come, mainly, where I come from, the evolution of, of our jumping in our career, but I think there is one very important point is that we were.

Fred Fugen: When I say we, because we did most of all of this with Vince, we were always trying different disciplines and we spend some time, for example, speed riding paragliding, this has been a lot of [00:03:00] inspiration also to us and basically being able to go. Outside of, skydiving has always been something very important to us.

Fred Fugen: Me, I started paragliding just before skydiving. Actually, my dad was one of the very first paragliders in a paragliding pilot in France. And I've always had this, this connection with this discipline. And then, when I could, I took Vince with me paragliding. And then, we started speed riding and for example, just this world of paragliding and speed riding was for us was nice to take a break with the drop zone, to go somewhere else, to meet some people.

Fred Fugen: And it's actually this, mix of disciplines and, meeting new people and, trying to, meeting people, talking with them and, trying to feel what they think and sometimes giving you ideas or. discussions with people that are not, [00:04:00] just skydivers, was a big inspiration to us.

Fred Fugen: And it was always very nice to mix the discipline. Of course, we've also been inspired by, by, the Soul Flyers, at the beginning, Loic Jean Albert, Val Montand, that was, the, DNA of the team was to mix the disciplines and do new things like this. And I think it's really important.

Fred Fugen: And this is, I think more and more skydivers and base jumpers are open to these, but I think it's really super important to, to go and try other disciplines, aerial sports, or even. Piloting, for example, Vince and I, we did our PPL, just to be able to, to know a bit more about what's happening, in the sky and other disciplines.

Fred Fugen: And, and this has been for sure a great inspiration. And. Also, when we were competing in skydiving, we, we were doing free flying, which is an [00:05:00] artistic event. And, the main focus of, of, free flying is to build, a routine, a free routine. And every year you want to search for new moves. You want to search for a new way to, to show your moves and all of this.

Fred Fugen: And I think it's been really in our blood from the very beginning in free flying to. to always keep searching for new things. And we could never do one year. the same things as the year before, we always had to do different, and new and new. And so when we stopped competing for us, it was like normal, just very normal to do something new and do something that.

Fred Fugen: Yeah. Nobody ever did before, or sometimes you, you have an inspiration, literally the project that you talk about, during the sky was, inspired by Patrick, the guy who jumped from the plane and went back into the plane. And with Vince, we always said together, we want to. We would like to do this again, [00:06:00] but together, but like the two of us.

Fred Fugen: And then we started to speak about this project when we, met, Philippe Bouvier, the pilot that was flying in Emporia. And then, after thinking about it, I think we had the idea how we should jump from the mountain, but this was super scary and, crazy. and Vince had this dream. One day he woke up in Dubai and it was really.

Fred Fugen: How it happened, we were, roommates in, in the apartment. And then he woke up and he's man, I had the dream that we were jumping off the mountain and we flew back into the plane. We have to do this. like I, I, I had this dream. It was real and, and yeah, and it was like, I was in my underwear, in the, in on the sofa, and you had the hair like this on his head and, I was like, ah, man, I was like, fuck, this is 

Laurent: I, did you have some apprehension 

Fred Fugen: you were, I was so scared, when he told me this, I was like, because yeah, man, [00:07:00] I had the dream. Like we have to go for this, like we cannot just jump off the plane and go back into it. Like we have to do it different and new, and this is going to be the next level and stuff.

Fred Fugen: And we already talk about this idea, but a little bit. And me, I was like, ah, no, just imagine to have to fly back into the plane with a base gear. Without cypress, without, not the same protection and then the same and, okay, jumping off the mountain is one thing, but for me, the scary part was like to wait to, hit the plane or to, if something happens and you have no, no, automatic device, so that would be scary.

Fred Fugen: But then we start to. speak about it and stuff. And, and yeah, it became, we started to imagine all kinds of scenario and we work, and yeah, between that day when he woke up with the dream, I think was maybe in February or [00:08:00] March. And then we, happened to finalize the project in October, so it took some time, but we worked a lot for this.

Laurent: that's a really good segue into, cause we talked offline about how. Much training and preparation goes into these, projects. And I think it's really interesting cause I don't think everybody really understands quite realizes the diligence and the preparation that goes into it. for example, the projects that I've been involved in, we always have.

Laurent: Broken every single part down into, very singular aspects. Ellen's a Dunkin Donuts stunt, for example, is can she fly with a bag on her arm? can she hit the target? Can, we capture it in a way that we want to breaking down every single thing so that all of the different elements can be broken down into its finest form.

Laurent: Yeah. What kind of [00:09:00] approach did you guys or do you have now for training for projects like this? 

Fred Fugen: But it's it's exactly what to say what you are saying. It's to really break the parts into break the thing into different parts. And I think one of the one of the great learning that we have was competitions because, I told you before when we were creating the free routine, every year for our free flying competitions, we had to think about moves.

Fred Fugen: We had to learn some, some way to train them and to break the routine into many different parts. And that at the end you will put together to make the whole, to make the whole program. And, I think that all these years of competition. really a big, thing for us because we learn [00:10:00] how to, train.

Fred Fugen: Basically, we learn how to create a training and we learn how to train of something that is new. So it means that nobody can really tell you how to do it because. Nobody did it before, so that's really okay. So then the whole process of thinking how to train these and how to break it up and how to separate it and how much time to repeat it.

Fred Fugen: And when you're happy to combine it and put it back together and stuff was, yeah, it was part of, it was part of, Every day, work in, skydiving for so many years, So that's why it was so nice when we started to, when we stopped competing and we went into project, it was so nice to, use this experience to be able to transfer it into the project.

Fred Fugen: Because at the end for us, every project that we did was for, was like. Was like a competition. Okay. The only difference is that instead of being [00:11:00] judged by some FAA judge, we would judge ourselves and nobody is better than ourself to judge what we can do, and how good we can do it and how we want to present it and, how we want to show it and all of this, so that was, that was the thing.

Fred Fugen: So it was very interesting to. To create the training and especially for a project like a door in the sky, okay, I'm talking about this one because we speak about it now and it's a good example, but it was the same for many other project to separate it. It was. It was so nice to imagine, But how can we train for this, in order to not get hurt in order to be ready on the D day?

Fred Fugen: And, even though we did all this training, the first time we jump, the first time and the second time we jumped from the mountain, we even hit the [00:12:00] plane and we didn't go back into it, but we had this planned already. This was part of the plan. was the plan B to, to maybe, not be able to enter from the first time and how to deal with it.

Fred Fugen: yeah, it was just, it was so nice, the training in, in, in Emporia Brava in Spain, when we prepare for this project was really, was really, Yeah, it was, so good. It was really a, it's really a part of the project that I really love is to the preparation and how to get ready for something.

Fred Fugen: And, and this whole journey that takes you to the final goal is, really as good as the goal itself, 

Laurent: Enjoying the path as much as the arrival. Yeah, exactly. That's, that's really good to hear, in your, and just social, just socially interacting with you. [00:13:00] You're always super relaxed and friendly and easygoing.

Laurent: is there a Fred that sort of a professional Fred where there's a switch and it's like, Hey, it's time to go to work.

Fred Fugen: I, maybe no, there is a, I don't know, when it's time to go to work for me, it's okay. Work, we are training on playing. Yes. We need to be serious and we need to, yeah, just to, to concentrate. But I think, it's, I really want to keep this. Like you said, it's a relaxed side that, that puts people in, in a good mood.

Fred Fugen: And, and that makes that you will, that you will, that you will perform good. I don't think you need to be, stressed and, and, angry or something to, make things work, we need to be concentrated, but [00:14:00] I think the people that we are, I'm working with generally.

Fred Fugen: My teammates now, Vince before, the production company that was around, we always try to be in the best, the best condition to, to work. So no, I don't think there is a big, big switch. Maybe sometimes, okay. When you get, at some point you need to be concentrated, but I think it's more. A side of me that, could be, in a stress, waiting for, waiting for weather when you're preparing a project and you're waiting for these or waiting for some permits or waiting for something like this.

Fred Fugen: But, I think it's more my wife that has to deal with this than the people, the people that I'm jumping with or working with. I've 

Laurent: noticed, some of the top level. Almost all of the top level professionals in action [00:15:00] sports are always really cool. And it seems like almost in a way that you're taking the responsibility, like you're saying, to make everyone feel relaxed, right?

Laurent: Because the director, the camera guys, the producers, they can be super like on edge sometimes depending on the production company you're working with. And when they look to you. As the professional, as the person who's going to be conducting the stunt as someone who's just Zen, relaxed, chill, has everything under control.

Laurent: I think it sets like it infects the whole party of okay, this is the sort of tone that we're going to move forward with it. And, I, witnessed that with you guys once it was a small job that you were doing, but, I think Seb invited us to come up in the heli. We went to the tour net. You guys were shooting a commercial.

Laurent: yes. It was super windy. We went up there and yeah, we were all standing there and you guys were like, just hanging out, [00:16:00] having fun. And it was a real, it was a pleasure to experience you guys and your element and get an idea for that because I, What's that noise?

Fred Fugen: Yeah, sorry. It's... It's done. 

Laurent: I was, yeah, I was, I felt, I felt young and impressionable, even if we were still the same age, it was like, I had lots of aspirations for doing more jobs and I was watching the way that you guys were working and it left a big impression on me of like... All right, cool.

Laurent: let's just, let's handle this like cool individuals. Yeah. 

Fred Fugen: I remember that we were hiding behind some rugs because it was windy. I don't remember what job was it for, what, was this, this film for? I think it was for 

Laurent: a kitchen that was like, on the side. I actually don't, I don't remember.

Laurent: You guys did a couple of jumps. You did one that was off the cliff and then you, jumped out of the heli, flew down the mountain on the other side of the valley. yes. but I, and then, [00:17:00] I don't really remember that part. I remember we had a nice lunch 

Fred Fugen: afterwards. Ah, no, I remember it was for like a series, like a TV show.

Fred Fugen: like a Yeah, it was like a little, little part of a TV show that, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Like a French thing, but yeah, I think it's really important. And, like part of the, project and, the, how, the success of the projects, we got really lucky to meet, Dino.

Fred Fugen: Dino Raffo. That was the guy, the filmmaker that's been working with us for a long time. And now we work with Thibaut Gachet. That is, the guy that's been working with him for so many years. And that, and that is, taking over now because Dino is, he's traveling on his boat. And, And these guys and then the crew that they managed to gather when we do the, the, projects, [00:18:00] usually it's, it's so nice to be with them because we have the same way of thinking.

Fred Fugen: They know us a lot. They know when we are stressed and not stressed. They know when to speak with us, when he's not the good moment, when he's the good moment, we know how to interact. And we know, and this. Just to be surrounded by the good people and it's not necessarily a big team like, to, for a project like door in the sky, I think it was six of us, six of us to pull out this, okay, there was some helicopter pilot, some stuff, but the core team was not many people and just because people, they are, specialized in their work and you trust them and, and people are efficient and that's it.

Fred Fugen: it's, enough to, make it work and that, yeah. takes, that relieves a big, part of the, of the stress and that puts everybody in the same mood. And, and I think it's not only the people you're flying with, but it's also the people around and it's, [00:19:00] yeah, it's just important to, to make sure that, that we don't create more stress than there is already because everybody's in stress.

Fred Fugen: You want to me, I want to fly good. I want to perform. I'm doing something that is risky. people on the ground, they want to get the shot. So it's yeah, it's, but it's, we're getting better and better at this, I think after the years, and it's something that you learned through the projects and through the time, it's not something that, but one more time, I think competition has been a great help for us because when you are learned, when you learn to perform good on For a competition for a world championship after training for two years, there is some pressure and it's, yeah, it's, a very big learning experience.

Laurent: Do you have any, tricks or techniques that you use? some. people in [00:20:00] our sport, like visualization or meditation, or do you have anything that you rely on for, to help you perform outside of actual training itself? 

Fred Fugen: Yes, of course. The visualizing is something that one more time that we learn with competition years, visualizing the move, visualizing the, the, success as well, visualizing what you want to do.

Fred Fugen: And not visualizing the, failure or something. and after I rely a lot on, I don't have a really LA, I don't have like a proper routine, but it's more I'm relying on the training that we did. So I know when we did the good. When, when you've done enough training, when you know you're prepared, when you know that you have everything that you, feel good with your training.

Fred Fugen: Basically, [00:21:00] you feel confident with the amount of training that you done. then you are, you feel ready, but it doesn't mean that you're not stressed, before doing the gym because you're maybe something you're maybe doing something new. You're maybe doing something that, okay, now you're going to combine all the parts of the training, like we said before.

Fred Fugen: And, And at that moment I try to, I always try to, how do you say, to trust myself in a way that if you get scared, it's because you're like, Oh, but if I fuck, this up, if I don't fly good, if I, and I always try to convince myself and to say, no, you got this. We did the good training and you know how to fly.

Fred Fugen: And once you're going to be in the air, it's going to be easier than now. Because, that's my life, that's what I do. And I'm good at this, and it's like trying to really [00:22:00] convince, myself that it's good. It's going to be easier. And everything is going to go good because I have enough training.

Fred Fugen: I know I got this basically, but it's I think it's difficult to, it's quite easy to stress out before the jump. And that's where I really try to convince myself. And it's like, being at the door of the plane before doing a jump for the world championship, and you're like, like breathing a lot and you're like, no, just think about the.

Fred Fugen: five first seconds of the jump and the rest will go, as a flow, because your shit, you've been training for so many hundred jumps, for this. And it's going to happen, And, yeah, I think it's my way to do it. That's really, 

Laurent: a special part of the jump, obviously.

Laurent: Whether you're coming out of the airplane or off of a cliff or anything is [00:23:00] the anticipation of the exit and, it all seems to just disappear. And I think that's for me, I think some of the most intense moments of those sort of feelings have been, Alpine jumps with a really difficult approaches, like where you're spending hours on the ice or in the snow or on the rock and, you're not sure if the conditions are going to be right.

Laurent: Are you going to get there in time? So you don't have a bunch of thermals. And so there's this and there's a constant, assessment of danger, right? So it's like this, mental fatigue that takes place as well. And then when you finally push off, it's like all of that just disappears. And, so that's interesting that you take that into your projects as well.

Laurent: It's similar. It's, it feels Can we talk a little bit about the soul flyers because, I'm just thinking about what you're talking about, how you're not particularly and sorry, let me, I want to ask something first. That's really interesting [00:24:00] about, the different, you're thinking, trying to think positively about the outcome of your, you're trying to think positively about what the outcome of your stunt or your, stunt is going to be.

Laurent: and I noticed that there's some people that think, that try to keep their thoughts really positive. And then there's other people that really acknowledge how powerful negative thoughts can be as well, right? Because we can't assess all the neg, all the dangers without realizing what negative things can happen.

Laurent: Like you were saying, for the door in the sky, you were like, oh man, like hitting the side of the plane, right? Like my pins could pop or something. I don't have an AAD like so What I'm trying to get out here is that can you tell me about the pilot like the when to think positively and maybe when?

Laurent: To focus on some of the negative things that can happen 

Fred Fugen: Basically all the negative things all the danger all the [00:25:00] risk you deal with it during the training. That's really the goal. It's like the training is to, is the part where you take care of the risk management, basically. It's all okay. if for example, you said he hit the plane and the pin would pop.

Fred Fugen: we, for this part, we remove the pins and we, had some, how do you call the, some, cables, like some cutaway cables instead of the pin. so the cutaway cable would stick out, 15 centimeters, outside the loop, So if we would hit the plane, because we had base three, if we would hit the plane on our back, the pin cannot move just two centimeters, it's going to be a long, it's going to be a cable.

Fred Fugen: it's going to be two of them. we had a reinforcement. 

Laurent: Sorry, let me ask a clarifying question. So on the bridle itself was connected to the 

Fred Fugen: bridle instead of put two pins. Yeah, there was, two cables of about [00:26:00] 15 centimeters long. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. The same as the cutaway cable that was installed on the bridle.

Fred Fugen: So when you pull. was the, it's the same, but the thing is that if you hit on your back and stuff, it can move even from five centimeters. It's not going to open, but this is all things that we thought about during the training and we were training in Emporia Brava. So we saw. Colleen Thompson, that is the master rigger in employer brava, we told him about our fears, and, okay.

Fred Fugen: This is the risk. This is what could happen. And then he has a, a very big experience in rigging as well. And he's okay. But let's remove the pin. Let's put the cable instead. Oh yeah. Okay. Good idea. Just and it's the same thing I told you before to be surrounded by good people and to, work with people you trust and Colleen in this specific case was.

Fred Fugen: it was a big help to us. for many other things he had does, but, specifically on this, it was very [00:27:00] nice to work on the equipment on this project. And like you said, all the, the parts, okay. We imagined to, to hit the plane. for example, we said, okay, we are gonna. We are going to enter on the left side of the, on the right side of the plane.

Fred Fugen: So if we lay, if we hit the plane, it's going to be with the left arm. Because if we can't pull the parachute by no, okay. I'm just going to present the left arm and not the right arm, or things like these that you try to, because we were thinking we were really spending so many months.

Fred Fugen: thinking of all the stuff that can go wrong. So when you feel good about all these points and you know that you've done enough training, enough preparation, and you, try to, you thought about all the scenarios. you can, never think about. A hundred percent, maybe you try to think about 99%.

Fred Fugen: there is always, okay. a little [00:28:00] place, a little thing that maybe, but you try at least you try and you try not on your own, with people around you, you speak about ideas, you exchange and you have discussions and open discussions about fears, about danger, about what scares you about everything.

Fred Fugen: and then that's how. Ideas come, to try to remove the risk as much as you can, obviously. And then, and that's why on the D day, when you are doing your thing, you don't want to think about all the dangers and all the risks because this was a part, this has been done before. This is already been done.

Fred Fugen: Now you're on the D Day on top of the cliff on the door of the plane or whatever, and you are thinking of success. You are thinking of what you have to do to make it work. And if something goes wrong, you already have a plan. This is part of the briefing that you put in your head. You already have the plan, okay, if [00:29:00] this goes bad, I'm gonna do this.

Fred Fugen: If this goes bad, I'm gonna do this. If this go bad, you, need to have some plan B. it's not, if this goes bad, then I'm, dead. it's so it's, just the plan B and the, reactions that you need to have compared to this risk or this risk. Is already in your head.

Fred Fugen: It's already planned. It's already briefed. It's already repeated a lot in the mind that, you only have to think about the good stuff and the good movement to, make it work at that moment. 

Laurent: Can we go back now? you touched on it briefly before, but, basically your inspiration and legacy with the soul flyers, tell us first, what is the soul flyers?

Laurent: And, how did they come about? 

Fred Fugen: the, the Soul Flyers team, the original team was created by Loic Jean Albert, Valérie Montand, Stéphane Zounineau, and Claude Remide. They are, these [00:30:00] four, skydiver, three of them were skydivers in the national skydiving team. Also, base jumpers. Pioneers of, Claude Romide is one of the pioneers of base jumping in France.

Fred Fugen: Claude, no, Loic and Zoun, pioneers of wing shooting. I don't know if every, probably not many people, I don't know if everybody knows about Loic 2023, but, people should know, that, he... Yeah, I was pioneering wing shooting in the, at the end of the, nineties, and Valerie Monto is a friend of them, paraglider.

Fred Fugen: He was in the National Paragliding team and one of the pioneers of, speed riding as well. He is a, he was a ski instructor. He was one of the first one to think about skiing with a small canopy on his head. and so this group of [00:31:00] people, they met and they were really inspired by each other.

Fred Fugen: They were really trying to exchange, discipline. Claude Romid, he teach, base jumping to Loic. Loic, build his own wingsuit with Zuun at the beginning and he teach them to, fly wingsuit and, they, they were also enjoying base jumping altogether and it was the, mentality of the team was to really.

Fred Fugen: mix the discipline, mix different type of, flying and to create some beautiful, beautiful videos, beautiful actions, like to do something that was, new and different and, in a beautiful environment. And what I really enjoy when I saw their first, first jump and first videos that they did together was that was it.

Fred Fugen: It was outside of, of [00:32:00] the, competition world. And that's something that when they started the Soul Flyers team, it was the year that I was doing my first world championship in 2003. And actually Loic Jean Albert was our cameraman in the Free Fly team. So I got to do my first world meet with him.

Fred Fugen: And at the same time, the first DVD Soul Flyers DVD was released and, it was projected on the drop zone in Gap in Tallard where the world meet was happening. And it was so weird because, Loic used to be a member of the national team for a long time. and, people, the, federation was a bit, was always a bit stressed with base jumping, it was really something outside of the federation, but we were on the drop zone during the world meet.

Fred Fugen: All the competitors there and on the big screen, sometimes you would see the base jumping of the so flyers and Loic flying by with the wingsuit in very close to the ground, the very first, proximity flight, as, as, we think, and, [00:33:00] yeah, it was. It was a huge inspiration because I was like, wow, for me, that was next level.

Fred Fugen: It was like, you don't need to be doing a competition. You don't need to, it was really another way to, to, do a performance. And it's something always that I had in mind. And when we stopped competing with Vince in 2009, we were, we had the head full of project of ideas and stuff. We didn't know how we could.

Fred Fugen: make it happen first because of, money, because we didn't have the money to pay for projects. So one of our goal was to be sponsored by Red Bull because, okay, a Red Bull is probably a good solution to, to make this dream happen. And, and yeah, we were talking one day and, and we thought about, Loic and we are like, but we should like, why not call Loic?

Fred Fugen: Because the Soul Flyer was top at the time, like actually in 2006, Valérie Montand passed away. [00:34:00] In 2007, Loic Jean Albert broke his back on a speed flying accident in, in New Zealand. And, that's when the team stopped. So they had the team for five years. They made amazing things. They had a sponsor.

Fred Fugen: Salomon was sponsoring them at the time and they had, they had budget to travel the world and do beautiful performance around the world. And, and always do new things and always like present nice videos and the, spirit, it was always joy. It was always laughing. It was always, and always also very like extreme performance, but flying and really the mix of discipline was nice.

Fred Fugen: And yeah, with Vince, we thought like. Why not call Loic and be called Soul Flyers? maybe we can ask him if we can be, if we can take over the team, because the team is on standby now. And then we call Loic, that is a friend for a very long time, and, we're like, okay, look, [00:35:00] we don't compete anymore.

Fred Fugen: We did this, we have this project. And he's yeah, for sure. yeah, you guys are, for sure, like, a hundred percent, he was super stoked. And, it was like, man, just for sure. you guys are good. good for this. And we, I know your spirit, I know how you do and stuff and, okay, go.

Fred Fugen: And so we had nothing. We, it didn't give us more budget, but just, we had the name, and for us, it's always been a huge, yeah, a great honor, to, be called Soul Flyers. Like now people know I, yesterday I was talking with someone, he said, Oh, you funded Soul Flyers. No, we just took the name at some point, but the guy who created that team, that was actually 20 years ago.

Fred Fugen: Inspired me, inspired Vince. a lot. And it was always, yeah, just a great honor to be called like this because as soon as you are called Soul Flyer, you represent what Loic did back in the days with [00:36:00] wingsuiting. You represent Valérie Montand who passed away, unfortunately, and Antoine Montand was also that's been part of the crew and, who also passed away.

Fred Fugen: And you represent what the guy did to push the sports. It's either in base jumping, skydiving, speed riding, all these disciplines that we did, that we always did. And, and yeah, for me, one of the best, one of the, most rewarding thing is to, keep showing what I do or what we do. to Loic, to Zoon, because they are our mentors, they are our big brothers.

Fred Fugen: and when these guys are, yeah, enjoy what we do and stuff for me, it's the best reward because I, they were inspiring us 20 years ago. and, and I always want to Why to make sure that, why to, feel them, happy about what we do, because [00:37:00] it's more than a, just a name.

Fred Fugen: It's really the, the spirit and through all these years, what it's been gathering from the friends we lost, from the, stand that we did, the project, the travels, all these memories, all this love, all these good energy, everything. Is, what we are today and what we still try to represent, 

Laurent: Yeah, that's great. you're like carrying the torch for this legacy of inspiration. And, definitely those guys inspired a lot of us. I don't know about people who are just getting involved now, but for sure, John, the week was a huge inspiration. the first time I saw him flying in Verbier, it was like, it just blew my mind.

Laurent: I didn't even realize something that was possible, and it was like, it just seemed like something that was happening on in another world. and then [00:38:00] again, I think it was like. In 16 sunny days when they were in Norway, his flying in that video was like, okay, this is something that I have to do.

Fred Fugen: I think when they were flying in, by the road, yeah. And, 

Laurent: he was doing barrel rolls and back flying. And he was just so much more advanced in every way in his flying. it was just, spectacular. And, yeah, so he was a huge inspiration for me, even, on the West coast of California, of the United States and California, it was like blew my mind, so I can't even imagine like having a personal connection with him and, the honor that must be for you guys to continue to carry that torch and have them be excited for you and everything.

Laurent: That's really cool. I, you were talked about the beginnings of speed riding and, and then you brought up Antoine's name and I, I remember seeing, images of him flying down the north face of the, [00:39:00] the Aiguille and, like his trailing edge was completely deflated and his skis were attached to the snow the entire time.

Laurent: just amazing. it was basically like a parachute that he was, speed riding with. Yeah, it was a parachute. And, trimmed a little bit differently maybe, or was it literally 

Fred Fugen: at it was, it was a parachute. It was not, it was before the speed riding wings at the time that we all had the skydiving canopies to do speed riding.

Fred Fugen: And at this specific moment that you're talking about, there was the first, manufacturer who are building speed riding canopies and he didn't like them and he was sticking to the old parachutes because they were not flying enough and they were. Really helping him to stay on the snow, basically.

Laurent: can you talk a little bit more about the beginnings of speed riding too? Because you were right there, witnessing all of it. take us back a little bit. So you told us a little bit about the gear that was being used, [00:40:00] but then who other, who else was involved with this and. Tell us a little bit about the process that went into that.

Fred Fugen: But from my story is that, I, yeah, I was already doing paragliding. I met with a guy called Frank Cooper that, he's a bit known because he opened a speed riding school in Valfrejus that's called Ataca speed riding. I don't know if you heard about it. It's been a long time that, it's the first speed riding school in the world.

Fred Fugen: And Frankie was my Speed, was my paragliding instructor. So we became friends. And actually in my head I had this story. I knew a guy, a skydiver that, in, I don't know, like in 99 or 98 or something, he took off from a mountain with a hundred square feet. Skydiving canopy. And me, I was doing paragliding at the time.

Fred Fugen: And I [00:41:00] knew this canopy, like a hundred square feet was very small. And he's no, man, just been running off the mountain with the, and it was, and he was great. I did the flight. I was like, what? I, I just, I had three hours of skydiving or something. And the guy told me this, And I keep this in my head.

Fred Fugen: And then in 2000, February of 2001, I went, in vacation to see Frankie in Valfrejus, but at the time we were just, we were skiing, we were paragliding a bit in the mountains. also he was dropping me off his paraglider with a base rig, from the tandem that we're jumping in Valfrejus. And I still, I always had this idea in the, mind of, from that guy.

Fred Fugen: And I had my skydiving rig with me. So I had the Springo, 110 from Parachute de France. And I told him, and I didn't know anybody who was, who did this before with, with the skis. [00:42:00] I was like, Hey Frankie. And I knew that if the guy could run off a mountain with a hundred square feet canopy, I could take off with skis.

Fred Fugen: You don't even need to run. You just need to, slide down. So I. So I put the rig on my back. I put the slider behind the head. Like he was as bad as this. I really like we opened the skydiving, skydiving rig. I put the slider behind the head. we, we removed the bag and the pilot shoot and, and that's it.

Fred Fugen: and I did the first takeoff in Valfrejus with a. with the Springo 110 and Benj, Benjamin Ruffet, Vince's brother was here with me that day and he was the second to take off. And then, Arno Fletcher, also is a pioneer of, free flying in France, was there and we did a few flights and for one year or two, it was just a few of us taking off.

Fred Fugen: Landing with, with a small skydiving canopy, which was nice because we were [00:43:00] thinking about swooping, but for us at that time, it was just a takeoff and the landing, a takeoff and the landing and swooping, swooping the, the mountain, yeah, flying close and stuff. And, and then we met with other paragliding pilots and one big evolution of speed riding was in 2003 when these guys, started to use.

Fred Fugen: Our canopies from skydiving, but they attach it to a paragliding harness. And that was a big step because being able to move the hips and being able to, to, it was, a lot of, was a big change into the type of flying the canopy. So the paragliding harness was something, but still we were still flying and stuff.

Fred Fugen: And that's only when Antoine Montand arrived and he as a very good skier that he was. use our canopies, use a paragliding harness because he was a paragliding pilot, but he decided to stay on [00:44:00] the, to, to ski and to use the canopy just when you could not do anything else. if you have to jump off a huge cliff or you want to do a barrel roll or something like this, but it was really, another way to see speed riding.

Fred Fugen: and from that point, it was a big change in the whole activity, because then it was like, okay, we actually skiing with a canopy above the head and we use it only when, you cannot do a, when you're, when, is the only solution and, and this, has been. pushing a lot of the people with their level on skiing because you can only do this if you're a good skier.

Fred Fugen: If you don't know how to ski, you will just fly and stuff. So this has been the, what the beginning, beginning between 2001 and 2007 when we did the first speed riding competitions, organized by Dino actually in Les Arc. And, and yeah, it's, [00:45:00] it was, amazing to, To see, it's still amazing now to see the evolution of the discipline and, it was so nice to mix the flying techniques and the gear with the paragliding guys, because it was really the mix of, skiing techniques of, paragliding harness.

Fred Fugen: Scalloping canopies, we, our vision of swooping their vision of flying canopies and stuff. And we were spending time in the weeks and weeks together in the mountains in the wintertime. and just yeah, just, having fun and, doing this and that's what it's, what a beautiful sport.

Fred Fugen: Yeah, no, man, it's crazy. And that's really. it's by doing these sessions in the winter that Vince, when we were going back to skydiving after in March, because we used to spend one or two months in the ski resort, every winter and when we would go back to [00:46:00] skydiving, that's when he had this, frustration of going back to skydiving rig with a fast canopy.

Fred Fugen: We could not fly with the harness with the hips and that's how, he got the idea to build the mutant harness. You heard about this harness that was built by, is built by UPT. The reason why he's called mutant it's because it's, it's, 

Laurent: it's a mutation between paragliding 

Fred Fugen: harness. Yes, it is.

Fred Fugen: But it's also, it's a homage to, or it's a, yeah. To, to Antoine Montant, because Antoine was helping him to, work on the first, the first harness, a tribute. That's what the word I was looking for. It's a tribute to Antoine Montant that was helping him and Montant, became mutant. And, it's really because we were swooping.

Fred Fugen: Our skydiving canopies all winter in Valfreyjus with a paragliding [00:47:00] harness and then going back to skydiving and being hanged by the shoulders, I was like, no, but man, we can't do this anymore. it's so it took some years for Vince to work on the prototype and then going to the US, being held by UPT to, create the first, prototype and the first, the first harness mutant harness that was produced.

Fred Fugen: and now I can see in swooping competitions, people are using it and stuff like this, but this idea of having a skydiving harness, having such a harness in skydiving is literally came because. We were spending all winter doing speed riding. And so you see, that's the one more story that, that, that shows that mixing the discipline and being with other people and going outside of the drop zone and, just, being aware of other flying techniques, can push the, [00:48:00] the sport forward.

Laurent: I feel like it's been a new re emergent of the mutant as well. Like I'm seeing more videos and pictures and of people using it, just lately. It seems like it could just be my subjective experience 

Fred Fugen: online. But at the beginning it was a bit, just like everything that's different, it took a bit of time.

Fred Fugen: also, at the beginning people were using, people thought that it was going to be used only in swapping. Like for swooper, competition swoopers, but, Vince and I have been jumping the mutant since 2016. it's been my free fly rig since 2016. So it's been many years that I did hundreds of jumps.

Fred Fugen: with, with this harness for free fly. And, for us, it was like, we didn't want to choose between swooping and free flying, it was like, no, we just have to pull maybe a little bit higher just to, to remove the, handle, to go into, [00:49:00] into the sitting position of the harness.

Fred Fugen: But, that's the way we used it. And it took a bit of time in competition. People didn't know really much how to use it. And since a couple of years. there was better, results in competitions with the harness, and now people start to use it more. And also a few guys start to use it in free flying, even though it's a harness for swooping, but it's the same thing that I say to the people every time that they ask me about the Mutant, because it's still new. Like I was on the drops on the other day and people are like, why is the Mutant never seen before? No, it's wow. And they're like, When I think about I'm jumping this since 2016, I'm like, yeah, okay.

Fred Fugen: But when, once once you get used to it, you can never go back to the normal, to the normal harness, like being hanged by the hips, being able to fly the canopy, to lean backwards, [00:50:00] to use your body weight, to, to, to play with the, angle of attack of the canopy. Is so much nicer that after that, using a Valkyrie canopy or fast canopy being high by the shoulder is.

Fred Fugen: It's so frustrating, so I could never change and, it's something that I will, yeah, that for sure I keep using for free fly all the time. I 

Laurent: feel like speed riding is still being discovered as well. I think part of that is that, I have a big connection with the U S where I'm from and, there's a lot of ski resorts where it's just not allowed.

Laurent: Yeah. Which is unfortunate. but I feel like there's this. New this rebirth of speed riding for a lot of Americans, coming to the Alps. And, it's really exciting to see. it's, it's such a, it's such a beautiful sport and it opens so much of the mountain, especially here in Cheminney. you have a powder day and like maybe three hours [00:51:00] after a beautiful snowfall.

Laurent: Everything's tracked out, but then you can go to the top of Grand Montaigne and fly to a moraine right below the Drew and you have this untracked powder that's just, nobody else can get to. And then there's a cliff at the end. You just launch and fly away. it's just spectacular.

Laurent: wow. I want to thank you cause like you guys. open this route to something 

Fred Fugen: that's been, Oh, it's been a, it's been a group, it's been a group, but, yeah, for sure. Some impulse of a few people coming from different discipline made it happen. And there is people like, of course it was also like being able to meet, to have people like Mike Swanson, like Miles Dasher, people that we brought to Valfrejus or JT Holmes, that we, that came to see us in Valfrejus because we meet, we met with JT in the mountains of Norway, base jumping.

Fred Fugen: And we spoke about speed riding and he was a good skier [00:52:00] and he went and basically France and especially Valfrejus was the, was the lab, was where everything happened, and, and, where people could train a lot, doing laps all day long. And, and, yeah, we are very lucky that we had these and, and our friends from the U S came and then they could spread the thing.

Fred Fugen: And it's very unfortunate that. People cannot do it more in the US, but, yeah, we are lucky to have, to have this playground here and people like now, Valentin Deluc, that is, that is pushing the sport also very hard, that has his own style, and also he's been very inspired by Antoine Montand, because he met Antoine when he was a kid and stuff, and it's it's very, it's a very nice, very nice story as well.

Fred Fugen: And, and to see him and, and you go and, some other guys pushing the sport, like they are doing now, it's, it's super impressive. And it's, it's, and it's so [00:53:00] beautiful, to see the evolution of the wings and the skiing techniques and, and the place where they are going to and stuff.

Fred Fugen: And it's, wow, it's, amazing. 

Laurent: I don't know him super well, but every time I see him and, We've, ridden from the same spots is just what a beautiful human, like he's, humble and, very generous with his information and his knowledge about the sport and, yeah, it's, always been a pleasure to run into him and 

Fred Fugen: I was reading yesterday and actually this morning, this morning, it was supposed to, to, to go, to agree to media and to write.

Fred Fugen: yeah. 

Laurent: Talk about something that's a little bit more difficult. And, I think Antoine falls into that category. we're really interested in the way of communicating with each other because BASE in particular, [00:54:00] it can be really difficult to be. Self aware, when you're pushing the boundaries of the sport and going outside of what is, within your own limits.

Laurent: And a lot of times I know I, for myself and as I lean on my friends and my mentors to, give me a little bit of a kick in the butt about Hey, no, wait, Calm it, calm down here. you may be pushing too hard and, earlier on these conversations with friends and acquaintances and people about Hey, like maybe you're not going down the right path here can be really challenging.

Laurent: When you saw Antoine engaging in BASE, did you have these difficult conversations with him? 

Fred Fugen: not enough. I think, We had, actually the, had this conversation because Antoine, [00:55:00] was a very good friend. We spent a lot of time together. We saw him beginning of, we saw him starting base jumping.

Fred Fugen: He didn't have so much. Free fall experience. He didn't have so many jumps, didn't have so many skydives. He went for base jumping, quite, quite hard, from the beginning, but like his brother, and his brother passed away a few years back. And it was, for him, he wanted to follow his tracks, but okay.

Fred Fugen: one of the thing that, that, is, very heavy for me is to think that I should have, we. Vince, I, our friends around should have been harder with him because there was for me a lot of trust into Antoine because he was very talented. He was very, he [00:56:00] had the sense of the air, he had the sense of, flying his body, or flying in general, flying his wings, skiing and stuff that was, that was very high.

Fred Fugen: And, and,

Fred Fugen: I, yeah, it's just, It's just, it will always be hard for me to think about this because I should have been harder. And after, after his accident, I think that, it's been changing also the way I spoke with people and the way I react to some people that I see doing stuff that, I don't agree with.

Fred Fugen: And so it's either a friend of mine that I love very much and that I will, be hard with them because I will tell them what I think. [00:57:00] Not putting too much trust into them because Antoine will always be the example. like you, he was very good. Yeah. But that day, when he, when he had this accident the night before I was on the phone with him and I was telling him, ah, man, tomorrow we are going to Gar Labour.

Fred Fugen: We're going to do some jam, some low cliff jump with some friends, you should come. Oh no, I need to go to Ika. I will be, I will go there to do this wingsuit jump, but he didn't have many wingsuit jumps and me I didn't know the place where he was going. So I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know the jump was, difficult or not.

Fred Fugen: And I was like, okay. Are you sure? Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Just because I trusted him, but, yeah, I will. I always remember this last conversation and I was like, man, but don't go with the wingsuit. Just come with us. We go, we do a bit of sleek jump. It's going to be nice. And he just needed to do this.

Fred Fugen: He just needed to practice more, [00:58:00] and to jump more and, and yeah, that was his last jump. So it's, it's been, yeah, it's been very difficult. This, this accident and, and yeah, it's been changing a bit the way I see, the way I interact with the people as well. Do you have some 

Laurent: specifics about, the way that you're interacting?

Laurent: Like you said you were hard, but what does that mean? Just being direct? 

Fred Fugen: Yes. Just being direct. Exactly. And, and just basically not being scared of saying what I think. And I think this is a very great, How do you say, a, shit, how do you say, In French? yeah. No, but even in French, I don't remember.

Fred Fugen: yeah. Lesson? The lesson. No, this is something [00:59:00] very important, to be able to say what do, what you think. And I think that... vincero was for, is for me, the best example because sometime it was very hard. He was very, maybe too much, too, much straight, but saying to the people, or to me or to anybody, this sometimes he was like the, form was a bit, the, way to see it, to say it was, was a bit, Was a bit, 

Laurent: Needed some refinement, 

Fred Fugen: maybe. Yes, but... But it was the truth. And, and, at the end of the day, he felt good with himself because at least he said what he had in mind. And I think this is something that kept us out of, a lot of trouble together because Vince and I, we grew up together. We saw it.

Fred Fugen: We, we met each other when we were kids and we, there were, there [01:00:00] was no. ego, compared to us. And I think that when you are doing base jumping and you are staying on top of the, on top of the cliff with some friends, ego is something that can, that can put you in trouble. and one of the, one of the best thing that can happen is to jump with people and to jump is people we were with, where you share.

Fred Fugen: the same way of saying the jumps and thinking about the jumping and the risk and everything and not being able, not being scared to say, Oh, you should not do this or do that, or I'm scared of this, or I'm scared of that. And like to be able to express. to say what you have in the, on your heart, not keeping things for yourself because sometimes you keep things for you, maybe because you trust too much somebody or you're scared of his reaction or you're scared of whatever.

Fred Fugen: And that can actually lead. To trouble lead to [01:01:00] an accident lead to the death of a friend because we are playing this dangerous game. we are doing a dangerous part. And I think sometimes even something like, Oh yeah. Okay. I will tell him later. I will tell him next week or, this and that. should not, should not happen.

Fred Fugen: And that's why I'm, very happy, and thankful to be jumping now a lot with, Vincent Cote and Aurelien Chatar. we share a lot of jumps together also with Nick Scalabrino is also a very good friend that we've been jumping a lot. And, these guys. We share the same way of seeing the of doing your sport, and we also lost some friends.

Fred Fugen: We all lost some friends in different, type of accident, different configuration. And I think we get to also an age and then an experience where You like ego does is not going to help [01:02:00] you and you just being honest with yourself and with your friends. And if everybody plays that game and everybody is honest with himself and with his friends, then the group is, is a homo, homogen, 

Laurent: homogenic 

Fred Fugen: or united, the group is united and you think the same and that will, And that will, yeah, that will just save you.

Fred Fugen: That will just make you safer in your, in your, sport in general. There's a lot 

Laurent: of common respect amongst you guys too, which is, probably helpful, you all have your, Specialties in a way. and, I can see that, you can come with advice and suggestions and, observations that are gonna be respected by the other person, which 

Fred Fugen: is important.

Fred Fugen: Yeah, exactly. And, we all have some, we all have some experience and, and we trust each other. And the, [01:03:00] most important is to be able to, but to just to have an open discussion about anything. Basically, it should not be any, any argument. It's not about, being angry or sometimes, because then, that ego is pushing you in a way that, now I want to be right.

Fred Fugen: Or, it's going to be my way or whatever, it's just if we are doing something together as a team, we need to feel good. We need to all feel good in the moment, in the jump, in the, whatever, a heli jump or, base jump that we're going to do. And, and yeah, it's just a very important to be able to share anything and to talk about this.

Fred Fugen: And, and if you respect your friends, if you respect your, yourself, and you do this, with the, wheel of, having fun, because at the end of the day, it's all about having fun. It's not being, it's not about, being right or being wrong or doing this, this way or this way. It's all about [01:04:00] having fun.

Fred Fugen: And me, I'm having fun when I, enjoy the moment with my friends. So I want everybody to be in the good mood and I really enjoy it. even better. It's not just doing the jump, like the jump is going to be cool, but if everybody enjoyed it as much as I did, then it's going to be so much better.

Fred Fugen: So it's, and, all these goes through. the preparation and before the jump and the hike and the climb and whatever, and all this information that you share at that moment and all the preparation and the mood that everybody's in. And, and, and that, and that's something that, also was, yeah, we lost, we lost, Matt Manting last year.

Fred Fugen: And, Matt was also, very, good friend And I, I miss having him also on the exit point because it was very nice to, [01:05:00] yeah, that was exactly state of mind. there was no just being able to share some, some information and have a summer spend discussion. And we had the same way. To, see base jumping.

Fred Fugen: And, when, the world that I was thinking before is a quality, the quality, this, if there is something that I need to really, there is many thing, but one of the very important thing that I need to Kim from Vince that is with me all the time. Is his ability was his ability to tell the people.

Fred Fugen: What he has on the, heart, basically. And sometimes I didn't need to do it because he was doing it and we were working as a team, and then because we would talk about somebody, for example, but he would be the one saying, Hey man, you should, [01:06:00] because he didn't care. I was like, okay, but I didn't have to do this job because he was doing it, basically.

Fred Fugen: And then some other stuff I was doing and he was not doing, and then we were like sharing, sharing, yes. all the time, but now that he's not here anymore, it's my responsibility to what, to, respect this and to, keep this in mind and to tell to the people, just, I'm not going to tell to the people, you have to do this or that, but.

Fred Fugen: At least if it's my friends, my wife or people I love or I don't know, I have to tell them, what I think is, is good or bad. And then after they do whatever they want with it, but at least they know. And I'm not gonna, if I'm not sure about something, I will say it and we should have a conversation about it.

Fred Fugen: And, that's the way it is. 

Laurent: I know you're putting that into action too, because I had a conversation with, Marine a couple of weeks ago [01:07:00] and, she said. I asked her about the similar question. And she said that she had really respected a way that you had approached her because it was, I know exactly 

Fred Fugen: what you're talking about.

Fred Fugen: Yeah. 

Laurent: tell me what happened. No, Tell me. Okay. So you guys were, I think it was at the Donda Kroll and, she was very apprehensive about a jump that she was going to do and she felt insecure and, maybe felt like she had a little something to prove. And, so she kept all of her doubts, about the organization of the jumps to herself and didn't feel too good about it.

Laurent: And when she landed, you had some words for her and, okay. So she, not so much, maybe I'm. Miss lost in miscommunication. 

Fred Fugen: It's not, 

Fred Fugen: a really what happened, but, I will not. [01:08:00] Yeah. So some details of the, story don't need to be said, but no, the thing is that she was, yeah, she was a bit scared, on top of the cliff and we had a jump planned, for, a TV.

Fred Fugen: There was a guy from the tv, so we had planned, dreamed there was five or six of us jumping together from don't crawl and nah. And I could feel that she was, she was scared and nah. And at the end, one of the, some guys put up some plan, okay, nah, you jump and nah. And at the end the plan was that she would go alone last.

Fred Fugen: And, I met Marine when she was 17. I know her for a long time, 20 years ago, actually. And I could feel that she was not doing good, And so I decided, I said to the rest of the team, okay, guys, whatever, jump without me. [01:09:00] And I will go with Marine, because I don't care about, okay, yes, there is a TV show, there is something, there is some that, but she's my friend, she's there, she didn't feel good about the jump, because she didn't jump for a long time, it was her first jump, I don't know with that suit from that cliff or whatever, I don't remember exactly, but she didn't feel good, so I just tell to the boys, no, I will go, with her.

Fred Fugen: And I did, I didn't care about leaving the plan, and letting my friends do the jam for the TV or whatever flight they wanted to do formation. And I would go with her. But at the end, the plan changed. And, she, and she jump and, her husband, went with her. But, but yeah, it was just something like this that, we can always do one more jump and stuff like this.

Fred Fugen: And, if you feel. why there is some [01:10:00] pressure because you want to do a filming or something or that or just sometimes not even a filming just because a group of friends tell you, ah, okay, and then maybe you got this plan from the day before or from one week before or from a month before.

Fred Fugen: Ah, we're gonna do this jump and then you're on the, at the D day on top of the cliff. Everybody's in the mindset that, ah, we have to do this jump and then somebody's not feeling good or you're not feeling good or any, and then, what's the most important? Is it to follow the plan that everybody had in mind for one week or one month?

Fred Fugen: Or to, say that you don't feel good or to tell to your friend, man, you don't feel good and you should not go or whatever. We'll do this later. And maybe it's going to take another month to get together again on top of the cliff. Or maybe bad weather is coming the next day and you cannot go or maybe whatever.

Fred Fugen: But. You, when you know that this can lead to an accident and when you've been through, when you've been [01:11:00] through some hard moments because you lost some close friends, you need to take a step back and to realize what's the most important. And I don't really care about this jump, I want to feel good about everything and what I want to feel good.

Fred Fugen: I want to respect myself and respect the friends. 

Laurent: That's a beautiful lesson. And, it reminds me, I was going through an old hard drive of some of my, earlier jumps and, the importance of the friends and, what that brings to the jumping. And, I found myself fast forwarding through the jumps themselves exactly to watch the GoPro footage of after we landed.

Fred Fugen: Yeah. Yes, because 

Laurent: yeah. And, cause that was really the special, most special part is like the high fives and the excitement and the, I can't diminish the fact of what we're doing because it's just so beautiful and, inspiring and what we live for, but that moment [01:12:00] sharing that with friends is, it's 

Fred Fugen: priceless.

Fred Fugen: But you know what you said before you said, it's a beautiful lesson. yes, it's a nice word, but. We've all been into this situation, I also did this mistake, and we 

Laurent: get tunneled into a project or an idea, 

Fred Fugen: not be able to say to your friend what you really think, or, and this is because I've been.

Fred Fugen: Base jumping for more than 20 years. And like I said before, I went through some very hard moments and, it's lessons of, of life. So it's easy to say now, it's easy to say it's always easy to say it's more difficult to apply in the real life, but, it's, easier for me to apply it now because.

Fred Fugen: Because I'm, yeah, I'm older and I've been through some stuff, but, it's, yeah, it's just, an advice, [01:13:00] to give to the people who are listening to us or the younger people and stuff is it's about respect, respect yourself, respect your friends. And, and the jump is not the most important.

Fred Fugen: Basically. 

Laurent: I have some more, Going back to Vince, we, you talked about, your partnership as competitors and transitioning into, a more variety, varied projects with, all sorts of different formats and, you guys share it a lot together. I don't think that we can talk about your life and flying without talking about Vince, the Jetman project.

Laurent: Was, a man, the videos that you guys were doing is flying with jets and, the videos specifically in China too, where you guys were, flying around the terrain. And it was just [01:14:00] so spectacular. it just, people would send me those videos like all the time. I'm like, Hey, have you seen this?

Laurent: Have you seen this? And, I would just be like, man, I know those guys, I was like, I'm proud to know these guys. It was just and just not only for people who were involved with free flight, but the jet, the masses were inspired by, the fact that you were able to fly, because Everybody thinks about that, it's, it sounds almost cliche in a way, but like the Jetman project was this inspiration that, could, traverse all sorts of cultures and, ages and, everyone was attracted to this. can you tell us a little bit about the 

Fred Fugen: superhero, image that everybody has from, movies or whatever, 

Laurent: tell us about, the beginning of, Jetman and, how it evolved.[01:15:00] 

Fred Fugen: like you said, it's so inspiring because, if Rossi, the, Swiss guy who invented the, Jetman project is, is a very special man. And he had this dream about, about, about flying. And the, I really like the story about him when he started the, this project that not many people know, but.

Fred Fugen: He was a, fighter pilot for the Swiss army and he got, a clique inspiration when he started skydiving actually. And he had many, I think he flew like a thousand hours of, fighter plane in the Swiss mountains. So he can imagine all the terrain flying. He did he was free. To swoop any mountain with his jet, like with his friends for I don't know, [01:16:00] 10 or 15 years or whatever.

Fred Fugen: And, but when he started skydiving for the first time, he could feel the air on his body and the pressure of the air on his body. And even though he could go really fast and fly around with his plane, he was flying a plane and that's what he always said. He'd he was giving inputs to a machine that was taking him.

Fred Fugen: somewhere, but skydiving, what we can do in free fall is you are the machine is you're not, you're, it's your brain that gives input to your body to take you somewhere, and, and that's really when he. He started skydiving and then he wanted to stay longer in the sky and stuff.

Fred Fugen: He did sky surfing and then, started to attach some wings on his back. And, one day or another, we finish with a four jet engines and we fly at 400 kilometers an hour, for 10, 10 or 15 minutes, so it's completely crazy, but the [01:17:00] guy has his, his, his. the, power and the energy and the time that he dedicated into this project is, is insane.

Fred Fugen: Like he spent so many months, so many years in his garage, building his wing at the beginning and stuff. before we, before we met with him, before Vince started doing, flying the wing with him and, just what he was able to achieve alone. he's really impressive and I have a huge, respect for this guy because it really came from a dream that he had in his mind.

Fred Fugen: And even if everybody would call him crazy because he would be a bit like the mad scientist, on the drop zone with a weird wing attached, that was heavy and some fucking kerosene on his back and like jet engines and stuff. Yeah. like the first [01:18:00] time I saw his wing, I was like, What, like I was not really, attracted to it at the beginning, right?

Fred Fugen: Because I, really enjoyed me, hiking the mo hiking in the mountains with a small, with a wing shoot on my back, with a backpack and, hiking with my like, very simple way of, being able to fly. And that was the opposite. That was very complicated. You need a helicopter, you need an engineer to start the wing.

Fred Fugen: You need, no, you need this, you need that. But the result is, He managed to realize his dream and he managed to, to do what he wanted to do. And, and, huge respect for, for the, work he put into this project. 

Laurent: I met Vince the first time, when I was in Pura Brava, I was there with Matt Curtis and, we had some of the first versions of the Colugo and, I was like, flying skydiving with Matt and there Vince was, Doing some of his first skydives without the [01:19:00] engines, just the wing. And man, I was just like, he was super, Vince was super excited. And, it was really cool to be there and chat with him and get an idea of what, his early beginnings of training with that wing and, So later on, he started with the Eve and then you came onto the project as well, right?

Laurent: Yeah. And, so tell me just like your first couple of experiences with the wing and what that felt like. 

Fred Fugen: but first, it's, Eve wanted to share his experience with somebody because at some point he was flying his wing, but, people would call him crazy. And he was like, no, he was sure that it was not so hard to fly.

Fred Fugen: And he didn't have so many skydives. So he was like, man, with my experience of skydiving, I can do this. I can do that. I can fly with a plane and stuff. And, he [01:20:00] said, I feel I'm not so good, but I don't know, I would like somebody to try, and People told him on the drop zone, you should see this kid, and I was not there at that time.

Fred Fugen: Vince met with him and, he saw the wing, he tried. And, from the very beginning, Vince was like blown away by the potential of the wing, and couldn't, just was telling me like, man, you need to try this. He's crazy. I flew with the Porter I didn't have the. The engine's just playing with the portal.

Fred Fugen: and then, he was so motivated that he, he started the training and at the point at that time, there was no sponsor. Eve was, paying for Vince training at the beginning. He didn't have budget to pay for, more people. it was already complicated and it was already taking some time to, to teach him.

Fred Fugen: the goal was to [01:21:00] bring Vince flying with engines and, and me, I was following this because a step by step, Vince was always telling me, Oh man, it's crazy. You need to try this. You need to try that. And as I told you before, myself, I was not super, attracted by this from the beginning. So that's heavy.

Fred Fugen: That's complicated. That's going to be like, wow, that looks super dangerous. But, but because Vince was so excited, I was like, okay, no, he said, no, my bro, trust me. It's going to be insane. so I was like, okay. And I could just see him doing a, step by step, going through flying with engines and flying formation with Eve.

Fred Fugen: And then, at some point in 2000, 14, he got me, in, in Por bravo. I got to try the wing without tensions. And the first wing that Eve was letting us use without the engines was a wing that is, that is inflated. I don't know [01:22:00] if you remember this wing. It was a wide wing and basically one third of the wing in the middle of the body.

Fred Fugen: was hard, was heavy. And two thirds of the wings on the side was inflated by, by, air, canisters of air, compressed air. And so you would, because it was two meter 50. So he was to be, it was two meter 50, span that it was too big to go out, from the, parter. And so jumping off the plane with the wing flapping, you would.

Fred Fugen: push a button that was inflate the wing, but sometimes one side would inflate, not the other. So you would go into a spin, like a couple of time. It happened to me that, but Vince, you had the same, it was like, and for if you was like a way also to test your resolve. Yeah. Like how you would react and how, and now.

Fred Fugen: And we never cut away this wing because we always fight enough to do that. And at some [01:23:00] point he would inflate, and we would fly with it. that was, that was the beginning. And, then right after that, the project was bought by, Dubai, even because Eve wanted the project to evolve.

Fred Fugen: we wanted to fly together in formation and, he wanted more and he didn't have any sponsor. There was no more, no more Brightling, sponsoring and stuff. Prince of Dubai bought.

Fred Fugen: The name and stuff like full sponsoring for Eve for us, for the team and blah, blah, blah. We all arrived in Dubai and I got lucky that I started my training in Dubai with not having to jump from the porter, but we had a helicopter, training all winter while Eve and Vince were, flying formation doing this first Jetman video above Dubai that we did, At the end of, 2014, beginning of [01:24:00] 2016, 15.

Fred Fugen: And, at the summer of 2015, I got to jump with the engines for the first time in employer Brava again. But I was really well prepared and it was so nice to have Vince. to explain me everything. And because, when he started free flying, I took him under my wing. I explained him, I, when we met, he was very young and, he, really made a point of being able to give this back to me.

Fred Fugen: And it was the right moment to do it, that, he had this experience of flying this wing with, Eve. And he could explain me this. And this made me improve very fast because when Eve teach Vince to fly the wing, they didn't have the same language, they didn't have the same experience, they didn't come from the same background.

Fred Fugen: So it was, a little longer to, for [01:25:00] Vince to, to, improve, but. Me, when I started flying the wing, Vince were like, we speak the same language. We flew so much together. So he's okay, imagine it's like, when we do the truck or it's like in head down when you do this and that, or it's like in wing shoot and we do this and that.

Fred Fugen: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. and then I could pick it up very quick, because he was helping me a lot. So when I did the first flight with the engines, July, 2015. it was, it was insane. It was amazing. It was a huge memory, but I felt really prepared and, not, not scared because I did a lot of training before with the wing without engines.

Fred Fugen: And imagine that, just a bit more than a year later, we are flying in Norway, jumping off the cliff with the engines. And then a couple of months later, we are flying with the Patrouille de France, flying with the jets, and it was like, I started jumping the engine, flying the [01:26:00] engines in July of 2015, and in October 2016, we are flying with the Patrouille de France, because the experience that we had together in skydiving, free flying, wing shooting, everything, the experience that we could share brought me to this level and we all helped each other.

Fred Fugen: And, yeah, it was the really, it was probably the best year of, of, yeah, it was a very good year of Jetman. I've seen the team was big and we, did beautiful project. 

Laurent: And then you were both, trying to push the boundaries of what was possible with the wing. And, this is where the accident happened, right?

Laurent: I don't know the details, actually. can you tell me what 

Fred Fugen: happened? But the goal, one of the, one of the dream, one of the goal was to, was to [01:27:00] take off and land without being autonomous, basically. Being those superheroes. Yeah, exactly. how he's called, 

Laurent: like a vertical takeoff.

Fred Fugen: Yeah, yes, the, no, I was looking of the name of the superhero, 

Laurent: Superman. Yeah, really just like runs and puts his arm up in the air and flies away. Maybe you're thinking of somebody 

Fred Fugen: else. Yeah. Yeah. The red guy, man, I don't remember the name. The anyways, being autonomous. on the flight with that wing was a dream.

Fred Fugen: Vince started to, master the vertical flying. And one of the reason why we went to Norway in 2016 and jump off the cliff with the wing was to, train for the taking off on the ground. So we could not take off vertically from the ground at that moment, but, we didn't have enough power, [01:28:00] but at least we could take off from a cliff.

Fred Fugen: And then we flew back up and we landed on top of the cliff as well. So it was one way of going towards the autonomous flight. And, yeah, February of 2020, Vince did the takeoff. from the Skydive Dubai runway, that you probably saw the video, vertical takeoff, flying up, opening the parachute and landing.

Fred Fugen: And the next step was to, land without having to use the parachute. And that's during the final training of this project that the accident happened. 

Laurent: We don't really need to get into, the impact on you emotionally. it's clearly been something extremely difficult. I went to, The celebration of life for Vince and, it was a really special moment. And, what I want to ask you [01:29:00] about is this is something that's been such a big part of your life and flying and, high risk sports. And, did it at any moment, did you feel like doubt? Did you feel doubt about the path that you were taking or, that maybe it's time to do something else or, 

Fred Fugen: doubts.

Fred Fugen: No, it depends. But, there is a thing that is very important to precise is that. for example, some people said, Oh, his friend passed away in flying and he keeps on flying. Yes, but there is flying and flying. we need to realize that what Vince was doing, he was the only one to do it in the world.

Fred Fugen: Me, I was way behind with the training, of vertical flying and already in 2020, when there was the COVID year and we were stuck in France because, because we were at home [01:30:00] and, before going back to Dubai. and started training again. I, me, I started to be tired of going to Dubai. It was, it was getting difficult for me for other reasons and, I didn't feel comfortable myself about, about playing close to the ground.

Fred Fugen: With the jet wing, basically, because I didn't have this amount of training and I didn't have the same experience that he had. And, and I didn't, I was not, how do you say, it was not pursuing this dream. As much as he did, the, reality is me. I had some doubt about myself doing this. That's why I was, I keep on training with the cable because we had two towers and a cable to train on, flying vertical, flying close to the ground in Dubai.

Fred Fugen: [01:31:00] But I was for sure not ready to do what he was doing. and he was, Alone ahead doing this like a pioneer and nobody could, you met Vince before and I don't know if you, you know him enough that, when he had something in mind, he was like, 

Laurent: strong, focused.

Fred Fugen: Yeah. Unstoppable. Unstoppable. Exactly. And. And he was really, counting on the, the help of the people around. And, he was listening to the team. He was listening to, to, to all of us that was surrounding him. But at that point he was alone doing this type of flying. And, and, yes, he was pushing the limit of this discipline that, that for me, it's very different than.

Fred Fugen: going base jumping, going weak shield flying and stuff. So [01:32:00] there is a difference between this and even in Jetman flying, it's different of, flying Jetman, with a, in a vertical way close to the ground and doing some horizontal flying. At an altitude that is above 5,000 feet, where you still have time to cut away the wing, open the reserve, and stuff like this.

Fred Fugen: So it's a bit the difference between the base jumping, part of Jet Man and, and the scouting part of Jet Man, in a way. And, and, yeah, me, I, didn't have any doubt in the fact that I wanted to keep on. jumping and flying. for sure. Like you said, did you have any doubt about, was it the good way?

Fred Fugen: What is the good thing to do and stuff like this for me? I was not ready for this, maybe I would have been ready at some point, but for sure it was not my moment, but he was ready and he was mastering his flights and he [01:33:00] was doing. amazing things, where every flight that we were looking at him doing, he was like, he was pushing more and he was always doing very good, and he was being as safe as he could and really listening to the others.

Fred Fugen: And he was not, he was a really, in a good spirit, but. When you are that far pioneering something where nobody can, can when you're alone, in a, path and you are like, like true pioneers of aviation and the difference on that. project is that we were not, together sharing, things all the time we were sharing things, but he was alone, doing this and me, I was, actually slowing down a bit voluntarily because I was, I didn't feel really comfortable in this, in this type of flying.

Fred Fugen: One more [01:34:00] time, because I didn't have enough training, but we could not train both together at the same time. And before going back to Dubai, I remember a conversation that we had. And he told me, and I told him my feelings about this, I was like, man, I don't know, I'm too scared about flying this wing close to the ground.

Fred Fugen: And I don't feel good with this, I don't want to put myself into thinking about. a project where I have to land with a wing because I'm not ready, like I'm just not ready. It's and he's yeah, okay. I try. I understand you. No problem. But I want to do it. I'm ready, and I knew that he was, and I was.

Fred Fugen: He was in a good path, for this. and he was like, okay, look, if you want, let me do the testing. Let me do the stuff I want to do it. I am, I'm enjoying myself doing this. I love it. it works, it's going to work. We're going to, I'm going to make it for all of us. It's going to be good.

Fred Fugen: And, and when you feel good about it, when you have enough training, then you join me and then we will do it together, [01:35:00] but, you don't have to push yourself, but, let me do it, And I was like, okay, if you feel good. And we were there, to, to support him, to, so that's really how it was a bit, the, Jetman team at the end of, before his accident and, yeah, something, when you're playing with, with a margin, of error, that is, that is very small and you're doing something new.

Fred Fugen: Every day you try something new, every day you're, yeah, there was a, little mistake and an accident. It's, yeah, that's all I can say. But after the accident, after his accident, of course, my life will never be the same. It was different. It [01:36:00] will always be different, but I want to keep on flying for him.

Fred Fugen: as much as I want, as much as I, until I enjoy flying, I want to keep on flying for me, for him, for what we did. And every time we lost some friends, he was always saying. we keep on flying for them, and they, would have preferred that we keep on flying. We don't want to know. So I have to honor this as well.

Fred Fugen: And I have to, I want to keep going because I enjoy myself, I'm not pushing myself to fly because my friend passed away, but, but, for sure, every time I do a jump or a flight or a project or whatever, I think about him and, and, And it's a way to honor, what he did and, and the training that we put together to reach this level.

Fred Fugen: And, yeah, the name of Soul Flyers and, and, everything that this represents to, us, [01:37:00] 

Laurent: I, I've been living in the area, for, over, it's almost 12 years now. And, you were always, in Dubai or traveling on, trips and we never got to share a jump together. And, it was, it's interesting now to see you, I think I've started with COVID now being in France and almost rediscovering, your home playground and how it's evolved and what the new suits, what's open, what's possible, I was following along with our WhatsApp group and Julian Mio was showing you all the new stuff and Annecy and, and, it's opened, with this tragedy, it's opened up a new chapter in your life.

Laurent: It seems like of, Rediscovering the Alps and, what's part of that too, is that your wife, you guys are sharing a lot of jumps with [01:38:00] your wife and, it's really, it's really a pleasure to see, and it's also really amazing to see the sort of progression that she's had as well. she's already like a very accomplished skydiver, but like in each video, you guys were training together and it just seems like it's, she's getting better and better.

Laurent: I want to talk to you a little bit, because it seems like in the. BASE community, it's like this, like faux pas to teach your significant other how to BASE jump. And if anyone seems capable and in a good position to do that, it's you. and tell me a little bit about the dynamics of flying with someone that you love.

Laurent: Because, it's, it can be so amazing to share these beautiful moments with them, but it can also be a little bit nerve wracking and, stressful. And you want to make sure to, offload as much information as you can so that they're prepared and safe as you can make it. And, [01:39:00] I'm just speaking from my own personal experience, but, Ellen was a.

Laurent: better pilot, skydiver and all that stuff when we met. So I never had to mentor her in any way. Tell me, what has that experience been like for you? 

Fred Fugen: yeah, flying with Laurence, with my wife is, yeah, is beautiful. We, like you said, we share some, some beautiful moments. The reality is that when, we met.

Fred Fugen: she already wanted to base jump before she already did some base jumping before we met. So she was already attracted by base jumping when she was in the national skydiving team. And actually she bought our first, base jumping rig to, Jean Philippe Teffo. Okay. And so she made him, she made Jean Phi a long time ago.

Fred Fugen: He sold her a rig and she couldn't keep on jumping because she was in the, So she had to stop, but she did a few base jump [01:40:00] before we met. And so after we met, she went back into jump, into jumping a little bit, very discreet at the beginning because the team, the federation should not know and stuff.

Fred Fugen: And then when she stopped competing, then that was like, okay, now I can do what I want. And, and, it's, I've always felt really, Comfortable taking her base jumping because she has 8, 000 skydives. She did competition accuracy. most of the competition she did was in a four way. formation skydiving, but she did competition in accuracy.

Fred Fugen: she started paragliding as well with me. She does a bit of speed riding. So she has, she's, I think she's very complete. She was also, a wind tunnel instructor. She did a lot of flying in, in Sion, in real fly. So she has a very, complete, [01:41:00] experience. Of, skydiving, jumping, freefall, canopy flying, even in the mountains as well.

Fred Fugen: she does, rock climbing, all kinds of skiing in the winter and stuff like this. And so I felt that she was, really well prepared. She had a very good background to... To be able to handle a difficult situation in base jumping, because it's going to happen, it's going to happen at some point, like you do everything you can to make it safe, the conditions and now the spot, the suit or whatever, but at some point you end up in a, difficult situation and it's going to be your training and your reflexes.

Fred Fugen: That's going to, that's going to help you at that point, So I felt really good. I feel really good about this, because she has the good background, but. Like you said, it's, nerve wracking, it's, sometimes, a bit special because I, when we met, she had [01:42:00] very few base jumps, maybe five, six, ten, now she has more, she keep, I train her a lot with the wingsuit, now we've been spending a lot of time this winter in the wind tunnel in Stockholm because of her, the goal, she started base jumping more in Sleek, then Mutation, then ETMD last year, bigger tracking suit.

Fred Fugen: Now the natural normal step is to go to a wingsuit, and I was like, okay, do you want to wingsuit base? But first you need to, I always make sure that she does it for her first, that she don't want to do it because she's with me, so that's something very important that. Okay. don't push, don't force yourself to go to this past because, because, you want to do it for me or because you want people to say, Oh, Fred and Rose, they do this together.

Fred Fugen: the image, what it represents and stuff is good, but it's not what we do it for, it's not why we do it for. She has [01:43:00] to do it for her if she really wants to. So then. If, she, that's always, that's been always her, decision. And now if she wants to go in, shoot from the cliff, I want her to be very, well prepared because I know, I, know that it's risky.

Fred Fugen: I lost some friends, I've been around and so I, that's why I'm, I took a lot of time to, to take her to train with ETMD, to train with, with mutation before. I didn't want to push her too much with the wingsuit. I wanted her to, to train in the wind tunnel quite a lot. And now she start to feel ready.

Fred Fugen: She start to be ready. 

Laurent: The cats are going crazy. 

Fred Fugen: Yeah. The cat is going crazy. 

Laurent: You've has, there's been quite a lot. Go 

Fred Fugen: ahead. Yeah. I just, so it's funny because even some friends, they said, Oh, but, [01:44:00] why are now you're still not allowed to jump with the suit or whatever, like I'm, I'm slowing her down, or whatever, but.

Fred Fugen: Yes, I'm slowing her down in a way, but I want her to be super ready and I know about the level of most of the people base jumping now with wingsuit When they start wingsuit jump, wingsuit base, it's not a very good level. people sometimes, I'm not, saying everybody, but some people have, I saw, I'm not even, it's stuff that I saw.

Fred Fugen: I saw people struggling to do a turn. Like a turn, a simple turn on a wingsuit and you're jumping off a cliff with a suit. So you basically don't master your suit. You don't master your flying and your plan is to learn this. [01:45:00] While you are BASE jumping, while you're already in an environment that is super aggressive, while you already have to, you already have to save your life, you already have to pull at the right altitude, you have to deal with conditions, you have to deal with the BASE rig, you have to deal with all of this.

Fred Fugen: So anyways, it's not a judgment. I'm just saying that, in BASE jumping, and this is something that I really enjoy, that I really love about BASE jumping is the freedom. Everybody is free to do what he wants. but it's, there is also a dangerous side of this is that, even now we have schools, people like Rock Mal Nuit has a school in Chamonix.

Fred Fugen: They are schools, people to teach you base jumping around the world now, which we didn't have 20 years ago, but, People are still free to do whatever they want, but, I'm not here to judge the people or to give advice to, to, to everybody, but like I was telling you before, the people that I love, my close friends, and even more my [01:46:00] wife, I want her to be ready.

Fred Fugen: And when ready is ready to fly very good. Because I don't want this to, I want this to be a, how do you say? I don't want her to worry about the flying while she's base jumping with the wingsuit. You know what I mean? For me, the flying should be something that you already know how to do.

Fred Fugen: And when you will be base jumping, you will have to deal maybe with, your opening, maybe with the, cliffs around you, the lending, the whatever, all of this and that. And it's going to be other parameters that you will have to deal with. But the flying is a part that, you can train.

Fred Fugen: A lot now, I mean in skydiving, of course, but now even more with the indoor wingsuit tunnel in Stockholm, which is amazing. You can do this. And so we did a lot of training this [01:47:00] winter in the tunnel. We are going back. we did, she already did wingshooting for a few years, but she never jumped with the wingsuit from the cliff.

Fred Fugen: we are going back to Emporia Brava at the end of May to do 50 more skydives with the suit. she's training on the opening and stuff. I want her to be ready because I think, it's my vision of things, but I want. When I enjoy the flying, when I enjoy the jump is when I master my flight. I, I'm in control.

Fred Fugen: I want to be in control to have fun. I don't want to come on, I don't want to, to, Like I want, I be in control to have fun, and I want her to control her flight, and I want her to, know how to fly a windshield. Before we go base jumping. And 

Laurent: this is really interesting. this is really valuable.

Laurent: what I'm taking away from this and what I'm thinking about too, is like when we were talking about speed riding earlier and people getting involved and you're like, I, [01:48:00] people need to know how to ski really well, it was like, you either need to know how to fly your canopy really well and focus on your skiing or know how to ski really well and only need to think about your wing.

Laurent: and like with speed riding is if you're good enough at skiing, If you're not good, it's flying your parachute or flying your skis. It's you got to think about both and you're bound to crash. but if you just, you ski and you don't have to even think about your feet, you can think about the terrain.

Laurent: You can think about your environment, the air, and you have this, awareness that's open and the way that you're saying about. Being able to fly your wingsuit is that if you, on you want her to be at a level of proficiency that she doesn't even need to think about flying her wingsuit. It just happens intuitively.

Laurent: Exactly. And all you have to think about is positioning your feet, making sure not to slip, pushing in a good 

Fred Fugen: angle. Exactly. and, she's gonna have to, because right now she always did jumps with, with a [01:49:00] tracking shoot. the harms. The arms are always free for the push, for the jump and to, to, to grab the handles on opening the toggles.

Fred Fugen: But, now she's going to have to deal with having the arm with the suit. in the suit for the push, but as soon as the suit will inflate. As soon as she's going to have enough air, enough pressure, enough speed to fly the suit. Ah, okay. I'm at home. I know what to do. And then, doing the flight and then learning if she wants to get closer to a mountain, to follow a ridge or whatever.

Fred Fugen: I'm not talking about hardcore terrain flying that she doesn't have to do or whatever, but you know what I mean? Just being able to. To, to just to get closer to a mountain, just not only escaping from the mountain, but getting closer to a wall or closer to a region and being able to open the parachute in the, good position to avoid having line twist to make sure that you will land at the right [01:50:00] place and not break your ankle or not break a knee or whatever is something that, she learned in a.

Fred Fugen: In skydiving and the, all the, tunnel, the wing should take the, wing should flying in the tunnel and stuff. So it's, yeah, I want her to be ready. 

Laurent: Can we talk about the tunnel a little bit? cuz it sounds like you guys have, and looks like you guys have been having a lot of fun there. And, I have, I'm going for my third trip, I think, in a couple of, weeks.

Laurent: can you talk about why you think that. it may seem obvious to you, but why you think that the tunnel is a powerful tool for preparation in wing soup base? 

Fred Fugen: I will tell you, my experience is that at the Be, I took a bit of time to go to this wind tunnel because, because I was aware I was a bit, traumatized from the, vertical tunnel.

Fred Fugen: Actually I was, me and my team at the beginning [01:51:00] were one of the first to, to, to use the vertical tunnel. for free flying, for preparing competitions back in 2004 and I did about 10 years of wind tunnel training for free fly, coaching people, a lot of coaching in the tunnel, a lot of training.

Fred Fugen: And I hurt myself, I popped my elbow. I, hurt my shoulder, my back, my ankle, my, my neck, a bit of everything. And for me, the wind tunnel was, was a bit, scary and, about, About the Wingshield Tunnel, I have some friends that were telling me for a few years already, ah, go there. You should try.

Fred Fugen: I was like, fine. This looks like I'm going to get hurt again, and Danny Roman, friend, and he was like, no, bro, but you need to come and you need to come. It's going to be awesome. But, the question is not what is the question is not if you're going to get hurt, [01:52:00] the question is when, if you're going to crash is when you're going to crash, like you're going to grow.

Fred Fugen: I was like, nah, man, but don't tell me these like before I even go there, I was already scared, but then Branois, motivate me as well. And last year in May, we went to this wind tunnel. It was amazing. And it's, it was really the, it was actually the second day I crashed. and, it was, it hurts my neck, but, I could feel, of course the potential and the potential of this wind tunnel is the same as, vertical wind tunnel of, of create a revolution into skydiving.

Fred Fugen: In general, 20 years ago, not people, not many people went nowadays. It's impossible to win the skydiving competition, like a free fall competition if you have not been a lot in the wind tunnel. So it's a [01:53:00] real revolution about flying and the same for wingsuit, because you can fly a lot in a short amount of time and you can really improve.

Fred Fugen: So it's same as vertical tunnel. You cannot train. Everything in the tunnel, you cannot train the big flare. You cannot train the opening of the parachute. You cannot train the, big trajectories with the inertia that you could have, like following a group in skydiving or something like this, but what you can train in the tunnel, you can repeat it so much and you can feel so good.

Fred Fugen: And one big motivation, for us, when we discovered this last year and for us to go back this year was two, two reasons. First. Because Laurence, she was going to go into base and I was like, okay, this is going to be the perfect, because she has a normal job now. She's working in an office and she's not skydiving every day.

Fred Fugen: So in order to be prepared, this is going to be the best alternative is going to be the, very good, very good place to [01:54:00] train over the winter. Before we start the season and it's going to be perfect for her to feel really good in the suit. And also for me, because even though I've been flying wingsuit for more than 20 years, I improved a lot and it's been actually, I enjoyed so much that after so many years of wingsuit flying, it was, it's, a long time that I didn't put myself in a situation where I was learning like a beginner, and really.

Fred Fugen: Following the instructors and the guy like Patrick, we flew a lot with Patrick in, the chief instructor, in sure, yeah. I flew with him too. It was great. In, yeah, in Stockholm. and, and man, if you put yourself into a, mode where you are, you don't want to apply what you know, but you put yourself again in the position of being a beginner and you follow the steps and you learn.

Fred Fugen: the, tunnel flying don't learn wingsuit flying, you learn the wingsuit flying in the wind tunnel, which is very specific, which is like a, like it's some [01:55:00] discipline, it's like it's on spot, but man, the time that you spend in the suit and the precision that you have into, transitions, back flying, belly flying movements, all these, all the stuff that you can work in the tunnel.

Fred Fugen: for Lawrence, it was crazy to see the progression because she started from almost zero from not much experience in Winkute and what she's doing now. we were there. on Monday, two days ago, we were still training in Stockholm and, man, we were like flying together and I could barely feel the difference, between me and her, okay, some stuff, I'm a bit less scared to try and but me, I have, I'm also fighting with my old habits of, skydiving and base jumping that I took with me in the wind tunnel.

Fred Fugen: But she, because she's more fresh and she started from a lower level. what she picked up, the right positions, the right reflexes from the coach, she could apply [01:56:00] it. And now it's and I. And man, we went skydiving the other day after some training in the tunnel, and it was amazing to fly with her, we had so much fun, and I can feel her so strong on the belly, on the back, she's looking at me, she doesn't even think about the back flying anymore, she just look at me smiling, and then she follows me on her back everywhere, and that's the way I want, that's really what I was looking for, and so we are so stoked, so happy about the training that we did this winter, because it's great.

Fred Fugen: it's not going to remove all the risk of base jumping, but it's going to really, it's going to really for a big part of, of the stress, and, and yeah, I think now she can go and jump from the cliff, with, with a nice, state of mind and we're going to be nice and relaxed and we're going to wait for good conditions and we're going to have fun, but, but like we said before, the journey is also the journey to the goal, the goal, right?

Fred Fugen: At [01:57:00] some point, yeah, the goal is going to be to do wingsuit ways. But the, training along the way, the, time that we spend training in the wind tunnel this winter is been so much fun, man. We had so much fun. Honesty was crazy. And I really want to thank Patrick for his coaching. It was really a very good coach.

Fred Fugen: We did a lot of time. We did more than 10 hours playing with him, this winter. And it was amazing. no, yeah, it's just like a full positive. And I can just encourage, Everybody, especially people who don't have much time because skydiving was, takes time, to improve the flying and stuff to get to a certain level.

Fred Fugen: So like I said before, you cannot learn everything in the wind tunnel, but you can learn. A big part of it. And, it's a good alternative to, to, for the training, because you can fly a lot in a short amount of time. 

Laurent: Yeah. I pinged her on Instagram and was like, [01:58:00] wow, the progression is insane.

Laurent: Like just watching, cause you're very active on Instagram and sharing all the training that you guys have been doing in the tunnel. And I just had to reach out to her and be like, this is amazing to watch. you've gone from, Tracking in a two piece to now being, amazing in your wingsuit.

Laurent: Like it, it's truly impressive. I just wanted to recap a little bit again, to touch on some of the things that it doesn't bring, right? inertia, you said, and I think a lot of that has to do with the depth perception, right? in a. Wingsuit base jump, you want to arrive at terrain or maybe even above the pool area with speed and power.

Laurent: And you don't necessarily get that from the wingsuit tunnel, right? You don't have that sense of depth perception. You don't have like, how do I change my angle here to get there with lots of speed? That, that really only comes from skydiving. Base jumping and, heli [01:59:00] flying and things along those lines.

Laurent: And then of course, like things like paragliding and, mountain swooping and speed riding and things like that help you to develop that sort of depth perception to, to know how to get there with speed. But the tunnel also gives you that vertical and, wingsuit tunnel gives you that sense of relationship of sensitivity to the air.

Laurent: Would you agree where, you can feel where the air is flowing off of your body, how you can develop speed with the position of your body and the configuration of your wing. I guess this isn't so much of a question of more of just recapping what you said. But 

Fred Fugen: yeah, but in the tunnel, the same of free for free flying, you can.

Fred Fugen: I think about some small details and work on some details and some position or some reflexes that you would never have time. You would never think about sometimes even in skydiving, even less in base jumping. [02:00:00] So how can you improve with some very specific stuff? at some point it will work, it will just take so much time.

Fred Fugen: like so much time and base jumping takes some time. Maybe you do one jump a day, two jumps a day. Okay. Maybe you go to Lothar Brennan. You do 10 jumps in a day because, but what I mean is that it takes some time. And, yeah, but all those base 

Laurent: jumps, they equal what? like two minutes at the end of the day, like you do a bunch of base jumping, a lot of how much time you spend 

Fred Fugen: to consider it like as a complimentary, discipline, that if you spend some time there, you will really, get as a base, you will have like reflexes, some, some position, basic position, transition, like flying your suit, feeling the air on the, suit.

Fred Fugen: In, yeah, just very precise movements, working on grips, working on things like that. And at the end of the day, [02:01:00] it'll make your, your capacity in windshield flying your basic skills, very strong. And then, like you said, terrain flying. You cannot only learn it. When you do terrain flying, the problem is that even in skydiving, I actually, when we spoke at the beginning, when I talk about inertia, I meant compared to other people, like inertia, like flying, next to a group or trying to reach someone in the sky, and trying to stop next to it and stuff like with longer distance and more energy to stop next to somebody and to be precise in this, once you are close to somebody, then the wind tunnel will, will, will work a lot, but, for All the distance, the big flares and stuff like this, you need to train this in skydiving.

Fred Fugen: And then terrain flying comes with terrain flying. you need to learn to see the mountain. Like you said, speed riding is also, or speed flying, speed riding, all the stuff like [02:02:00] trying to anticipate your glide ratio, for example, is also something that, when you do a lot of speed flying and you're flying with, the eight square meter.

Fred Fugen: it's a glide ratio that is sometimes close to what we can do in wingsuit flying. So it's also the, it's about the same way to approach the, to visualize, the terrain and, to anticipate, if you need to turn or if you can keep going straight or something like this, for sure doing these mountain activities, will help.

Fred Fugen: and then after, I think to get closer into terrain flying, it only comes with the right choice. Of the spot where you need to go compared to your experience to make sure that you improve step by step and you don't put yourself in a two, two difficult situation compared to the overall experience.

Fred Fugen: But 

Laurent: speaking of terrain flying, like one of the. [02:03:00] Best practices like rules that I have for myself, when I feel really good about a jump is that I have enough speed on terrain that I can always just flare and pull. I feel like when I can do a really nice line where I'm, following the terrain and in a very, a beautiful way and, but I can flare and pull, it always feels best for me.

Laurent: do you have some ideas about best practices for Terrain flying that you were like, things that are important for you. 

Fred Fugen: it's the same as you said. this, very basic rule of having the spin and being able to flare out or out of the line is, is for sure, very important. and then I think that, the, since we don't have.

Fred Fugen: Instruments, since we have to [02:04:00] rely on our like, we don't have instruments like on an airplane and since we have to rely on our, feeling and the feeling of the air and feeling of the pressure and all of this, at the end of the day, the indications that you will get from the wing suit, from the air pressure from the speed that you can feel, with your body, with your head, with, Whatever, when you're flying, only comes with the time spent in the air.

Fred Fugen: So it's, I think, yeah, it's the training in skydiving. Also some very specific stuff like acceleration, speed flare up and all these like changing angles and, changing the pressure in the suit is, for sure, a super important exercise and, taking the. Taking the time in, in, in base jumping to go from one spot to another.

Fred Fugen: And, and yeah, to make sure that you always have [02:05:00] the, what the good speed in the suit and, yeah, just, I'm always trying to work on always trying to put a bit more speed and to dive a little bit more and not, I think one of the dangers would be to get used to fly too slow all the time.

Fred Fugen: And get used to this and, trying to think that, Oh, this is actually the, in the medium way, this is actually the good way. And then you're actually too slow. And then when you need to get out, then you can't, so it's like always trying to fly a bit steeper, a bit more aggressive and a bit faster than what you could to make sure that, like you said, that you always have power to flare up.

Fred Fugen: But, It's a long, it's a long journey, to, do precise terrain flying. And we are [02:06:00] very, we are helped also nowadays with the wingsuit compared to the suit that we had, some years ago to fly close to the terrain. That 

Laurent: was right. Like the aura five difference between the matter is a, it's. It's pretty significant.

Laurent: Yeah. 

Fred Fugen: like we didn't have the same power, the same flair, the same, range of, of flying. And, and of course it, it helps, but it doesn't help, everything. It doesn't reflect, it doesn't replace the training, the practice and the experience that, and the feeling that you need to have of the air and of your position in the air while you're looking.

Fred Fugen: While you are looking at the terrain, 

Laurent: one of the things that you've been doing lately too, is these videos, with the comms recording, which is I'm thinking of your Mont Blanc project recently, which is funny cause we ran into each other at the heliport there [02:07:00] while you guys were making those flights, I was just a little bit jealous, and, yeah. I'm just thinking about having that speed and attacking. It's it's a delicate balance, Of being able to fly in formation on terrain and flying as fast as you can to have that margin. and, I guess that only really comes with, practice with your partners and signaling to them over the comms of okay, here, let's go, let's turn it up guys. We're here. We're going to go start going faster and faster.

Laurent: can you tell us a little bit about, the comms and, because I think that, everyone is like inspired now, again, by you guys talking to each other, I had early versions of the Cardo, and, we were, doing, skydive training and, coaching with these things. And it just didn't work really well.

Laurent: Like it was cutting out a lot and it was is this thing on? Can they even hear me? I feel like [02:08:00] the technology has improved. And yes, 

Fred Fugen: the technology has improved, but, it's funny because now it seems like a new thing to, to speak in the air, but, to, tell you a bit, the story. with Vince, we started to use the Cardo 10 years ago.

Fred Fugen: We started to use it in 2013 because at that time, Yves Rossi from Jetman, he was looking for a communication system and he started to use the Cardo, on his helmet. And, and so we picked it up from him. We started using it in skydiving and, in base jumping and. If you look at when we jump from the Burj Khalifa in 2014, when we jump at 10, 000 meters above the Mont Blanc in 2014, we had the comms, we had the Cardo.

Fred Fugen: It was an older system, but we had the communication and we've always, keep using them. it happened that... this brand now [02:09:00] wants to expand on more sport and stuff like this, and then we, show it more, now because we have a partnership with them. So it makes also sense to, to, show it more, but it's, also, so nice to share the conversation and share the, what we are doing, what we are seeing while we are flying.

Fred Fugen: And I think it's really to be very honest, my experience with that system is that in free flying, normal skydiving, I don't really use it so much. It's, it doesn't work as good, but for wingsuit flying, it's Crazy good. that's why we've been using it for a long time. It's amazing. look, every jump I do with Lawrence, we have the flare.

Fred Fugen: we have the radio and I'm teaching her how to do the big flare and stuff like this live. And it's so nice to flare next to her and to tell her, [02:10:00] okay, look down, push on the knees, push on the arms. to do the live coaching, instantly. It's, it's amazing. And to do all the flying that we are doing with Versh and Branois, like the project of the Mont Blanc we did last year, the radio is so important.

Fred Fugen: We could do it without, let's say at the last moment, if we had a failure, okay, we could do it the old way and okay, I follow you. And we know we are, because we already have a plan and we could follow each other because we have some skills, but. we do everything we can to, have it. and it works very good.

Fred Fugen: Like it's very rare that the radio doesn't work. we are very happy about the result. the reality is that being inspired by. The formation plane pilots, Patrouille de France, the flight that we did with Jetman, the learning that we got from Yves Rossy, that is an ex fighter pilot flying planes in [02:11:00] formation.

Fred Fugen: You cannot fly precisely with your teammates close to the ground in a very aggressive environment, in high mountain or whatever, going at 200 kilometers per hour or more and doing very precise term together. If you cannot anticipate the trajectory, if you cannot speak like, honestly, this is a game changer, it's something that, and I really show this to most people because I'm quite surprised that, many base job, there is more and more people now that, that are using it and it's a very good thing.

Fred Fugen: And also for. Safety, because not only about the flying itself, I'm talking freefall, anticipating the lines, the turn, the dive, everything, all the communication you can have in the air. But imagine you open the parachute and sometimes one is landing and he said, Oh, be careful, guys, there was a line here or there was this cable there or there was this thing that, and we're communicating under canopy all the time until the landing.

Fred Fugen: And honestly, this [02:12:00] is sometimes could, could save some situations could really help because you keep on talking. Until you are, safely on 

Laurent: the ground. Yeah. You, are coming at it with a, it's like a kind of a unique position though, and this, we've been talking about this a lot in this conversation is that, there's like a certain amount of, Cognition that you have available, right?

Laurent: so you're thinking about you're flying your wingsuit. You're thinking about the exit. You're thinking about the environment, the air and things like that. And, the better you are with each element, right? Flying a parachute is another one. Each, the better you are, the more intuitive it becomes, the more open you are in your awareness to involve other details, right?

Laurent: And so the comms, I think, adds a heavy weight of cognition to the, To the whole situation, right? So if you're not an expert level wingsuit flyer, if you're not an expert level base jumper, adding, talking to [02:13:00] that and listening to someone talk to you can be really difficult. 

Fred Fugen: Yes, it can be difficult.

Fred Fugen: I understand what you mean, but, or require some discipline. No. Yeah. I don't first. Yes, but also because, also like training these in skydiving. Is a great help because you get used to speak to somebody, you get used to listen to somebody and to go back to what you were saying before and to, Montblanc, the Montblanc project, for example, or any formation flame that we are doing, you learn how to, for example, as a leader, you learn how to Anticipate and, and it's a difficult exercise.

Fred Fugen: You learn how to anticipate your trajectories. and, saying, telling that the guy, telling to the friends that you will turn before you turn, telling the guys will dive before you dive, because there is always a moment. And, you [02:14:00] learn as a wing man, as a follower to tell. To the guy in front of you, if you are not in the good situation, and this also a difficult exercise.

Fred Fugen: So both exercises are very difficult. It's very specific, positions to, to, learn how to fly. But for example, when you follow somebody, I know that for me, the reflex has always been to fight a lot, to, to try to accelerate, to go back into your place without saying your friend. to slow down, for example, but you learn that it's, not the good way.

Fred Fugen: The good way is to be able, as soon as you are in difficulty behind following, for example, with the speed or the head level or whatever to say to your friend, okay, slow down just a little bit. And the guy will relax the position just a little bit enough to, for you to go back into the right position with the right head position.

Fred Fugen: And then you can start accelerating again together. And then you can start. Turning together and fly as a, one piece [02:15:00] together above the mountain. But all of these requires that you fly in general at maybe 70% or 80% that what you actually can. So it means that. Even when we did the jumps above Mont Blanc, or any line that we are flying together, if you are, if you want to fly together as a team, you need to anticipate the fact that you put yourself on this spot, or this part of mountain, or this specific, line, you need to fly this line.

Fred Fugen: More relaxed. You cannot be a hundred percent. If you fly your line at a hundred percent of Ahmed first is not safe even for you. But what I mean is that to fly formation, you need to have some margin. The leader has to have some margin. The wingmen have to have some margin and everybody. and that's why we play with, that's why we measure the glide ratio, where are we going to go and, and how much time it's going to take with [02:16:00] this and this glide ratio.

Fred Fugen: And we also play with the suit that we are using. For example, me as a leader, I'm mostly, in this position. I'm, sometimes, most of the time using the, Aura 4, now Aura 5. And for example, all the jumps we did recently. All my friends, Verge Branois, Nick, Danny, when we did the jumps in La Clusaz the other day, they were all on C Race.

Fred Fugen: So following, we are also playing with the, with the, model of the suit. If they have a suit that is a little bit faster and me, I have a suit that is a little bit slower. They have more margin because it's always difficult to follow. You're always little late. So even if you, even when you speak, even when you try to anticipate as much as you can, the trajectory and everything, having a bit more margin, a bit more power than the, than the leader with a suit, and also, of course, With your position in the air will help you to [02:17:00] fly as a, as one piece, but man, this is a super, interesting exercise.

Fred Fugen: I really, enjoyed the formation flying and the jumps we did recently in La Clusaz above the, chairlift, being able to fly the five of us in a nice formation looking like. fighter planes, looking acrobat, whatever, like plane formations is, is, is something I enjoy a lot.

Fred Fugen: It's amazing. 

Laurent: I was really well done too. I don't know who was filming that project, but he had camera angles from all over the place, just added so much depth to the flight. It was really, well done. do you have any tips as far as one of the things Like, I don't know, six or seven years ago when I was using them is just making sure that they're in a position so that you can hear well, the microphones.

Laurent: Can you give us some of the things that tips that you've learned about, first off, which model and then, how to [02:18:00] position the headphones, which headphones you're using and the microphone just so like share with us all of this so that, people don't have to go through the hardship of a trial and error on, optimizing the comms for them themselves in a helmet.

Fred Fugen: yes. So the, model that we are using is, called, PacTalk, from Cardo, it's a model that was developed for, motorcycle. 

Laurent: It's the PacTalk Bold, right? Cause there's one specific. PacTalk 

Fred Fugen: Bold. Yeah, exactly. PacTalk Bold. it's the model that was developed for a motorcycle and, they are now.

Fred Fugen: They put another model out that is called the outdoor, but the outdoor is not using exactly the same technology and has a little bit more delay between the speaking and the hearing. it goes, it's good for most of the, for a lot of outdoor [02:19:00] activities, but not, for what we do, because we need to be very precise in the, turns.

Fred Fugen: And especially if you're on top of the cliff, three, two, one. Boom. you need to be a very, synchronized. so PACKTALK BOLD and PACKTALK SKI also is the same technology and is also, working very good. We are actually using the same headphones that they, that there is inside the original ones, that are JBL ones, but that are sold with the, with the unit and, and the microphone.

Fred Fugen: there is a very small one that we put in the, we are using full face, TFX tan fly, helmet because they are the most, most protected and to protect the sound and stuff like the TFX is even the helmet that we were using. So we were using comms, of course, with Jetman, with the TFX was working perfectly.[02:20:00] 

Fred Fugen: We use it now in base jumping, all the time. And, and yeah, we use the, the, original, setting that they sell with the, unit. The only thing is that the, microphone with the cable, He's sometimes a little bit short, so you need to make it a bit longer, to put it in front of the head of the mouth, but, but no, we're using the original stuff and it works great.

Laurent: So you're cutting the cable and, connecting a new cable to extend it 

Fred Fugen: longer, is that what you're doing? Yes. If this is something that, that you can do or a friend of you can do, cut the cable, make it longer. Yes. Otherwise you can use the arm, how it's called. 

Laurent: There's like a flexible one.

Laurent: That's just Semi 

Fred Fugen: stiff. Exactly. Exactly. This one is going to be long enough so you can put it in front of the mouse. So some of us are using the, the, cable. Some of us are using the little [02:21:00] stiffer one, in both ways, as long as it's in front of your mouth, you find solutions, but it's, it's, it's quite easy to, set up on the helmet.

Fred Fugen: it's, yeah, quite easy to set up. 

Laurent: Are you using them in the tunnel as well? 

Fred Fugen: We tried in the tunnel, but it was not I don't know for some reason We the it was more difficult to hear each other. Okay. Yeah was more difficult to hear each other So sometimes we were losing time to say, ah, what did you say?

Fred Fugen: I don't understand Can you repeat and this was like we were losing time. So we actually stopped using it in the tunnel But like I tell you in the last The last two training sessions we did in skydiving with Lawrence, wing shooting together. We did about 70, 80 skydive the last two weeks. And, it was working perfectly all the time, even under [02:22:00] canopy, even like it's like for me, for wingsuit flying.

Fred Fugen: Skydiving and base jumping, this is, super, super important and it works really well. 

Laurent: That's cool. yeah, like I said, when I was using them, it wasn't good enough and it seems like they've evolved in a way now that it's... Yeah, 

Fred Fugen: I, last week we were in GAP in Tallard jumping together and, Stéphane Zouninot, he didn't have the comms and we had the comms.

Fred Fugen: And, man, he was like, you can feel in the air, and we're like, okay, no, I'm gonna... And then he's It's impossible to anticipate what's happening and you're much slower in everything. And then we're like, okay, no, let me try again. Again, because we're working on a routine with like barrel rolls and everything.

Fred Fugen: No, it's once you reach that, it's same, something you can never go back, to the older way. 

Laurent: Some of the conversations that we've had on this podcast, talk about, how, in base, we have to [02:23:00] constantly keep things fresh to get, like this hit of dopamine, right?

Laurent: if you do the same thing over and over again, you jump the same jump, at a certain point, this effect that you have is going to wear off, right? And then you have to find new creative ways to get that similar feeling to it, right? Do you, is this something that you think about or have observed?

Fred Fugen: You mean to try to go to many different places to well, 

Laurent: let me rephrase that question. So one of the things that we've talked about, is like how in base you have to always push not your limits, but. Your experience a little bit, but it always has to be a little bit of progression to get the same sort of feeling.

Laurent: And, from what I've read and heard is, dopamine is a big part of that. So like when you have something that's unique and new, you get that, spike of dopamine where it's like. You get all of those feel [02:24:00] good chemicals rushing through your veins, but also at a certain time, especially with someone like you, who's been doing it for 20 years, you can't always be chasing that dopamine rush, right?

Laurent: So is that something that you've experienced and you've paid attention to in any way? 

Fred Fugen: yes, I think it's a bit in my blood, to always try to, do some new stuff. And, I really enjoy flying with, now with, with my friends to. Because they are a bit in this, in this, in the state of mind as well to try to do new things, but, I don't know if it really happens only about the jump and the dopamine, like you said, but for me, it's also being able to, go with my wife on a new place and to let her discover some new feelings, and, That's going to [02:25:00] be for me, super enjoyable.

Fred Fugen: Even if it's a jump that I already did a lot or just so yeah, putting myself in different new situations, but not necessarily in terms of like risk and, and how much you engage, in a jump or something like this, but could be only about, A new location, different friends with who you're sharing with, going to, a new trip with my wife, all of this makes that, that, I'm not bored and that I, I want to keep going.

Laurent: Is there anything else that's, driving your excitement these days? 

Fred Fugen: we talked about a lot of things, but, no, one of the, 

Laurent: You excited about going into some, the Alpine this summer? 

Fred Fugen: Yes, I'm going about, yeah, we already have a [02:26:00] list of jobs that we want to do. I'm excited. I'm excited also because we share, the same motivation. for example, with version about. some jumps that we want to do some, freestyle routine that we want to do in some, location.

Fred Fugen: I'm really excited about the creature, shoot from squirrel, at the moment, because it's, it's, I love to do some freestyle with wingsuit. And I think it's going to help us to do it in high mountain. And, yeah, some new project that, some new locations. We are waiting for some authorization now to go fly above Tokyo.

Fred Fugen: Maybe it's going to happen in the next few days. and, excited about going back into Dolomites this summer with my wife, because, we will probably go on some big cliffs that, she already did. But now if she's going to be jumping with [02:27:00] the wingsuit, it's going to be like a new jump, So we, you rediscover.

Fred Fugen: the place and I'm, stoked also to go with her on locations that are, let's say easy because, big wall, steep mountain and not necessarily a hardcore, short start and, and, terrain flying because I just want to enjoy the, climb and the hike with her and then. Jumping in a, safe environment and have, some really nice beach jumping.

Fred Fugen: It's really cool to be able to share with her this type of flying and, with my teammate, a more advanced, technical type of flying that we will do in more difficult conditions. So I'm really enjoying, flying in these, in, in both, situations. And, Yeah, I think I'm, just, just excited about [02:28:00] flying, in general, like I'm really, yeah, I'm really, this winter was a bit long and, and I'm really happy of the, beautiful sunny days coming back and, and, and I enjoy jumping a lot, still.

Fred Fugen: So 

Laurent: Fred, we just did over two and a half hours. man, this has been a great conversation and, I really wanted to do this one in person as thanks for inviting me over to your place 

Fred Fugen: and, it was beautiful. It was good. It's good, huh? Yeah. I 

Laurent: enjoyed it. Me too. so thank you again and, yeah.

Fred Fugen: Thank you, Laurent. And thank you guys. If you have the, if you had the courage to listen to all of this until the end, but, 

Laurent: you have been highly requested. we get more and more people sending us emails and messages about people that they want to hear from. And, you're one of the top [02:29:00] people that they've requested.

Laurent: So I'm sure 

Fred Fugen: that. No, thank you. I'm, very, yeah, I, love my sports. I grew up with parents that were skydivers and, I got lucky to, know this world for, since my young age and I still have so much motivation to fly. So just, yeah, it's very nice for me to share this with, with everybody.

Fred Fugen: And, if it can bring some more motivation and passion to do more jumps and try new things to a lot of people, then it's, it's perfect. 

Laurent: Awesome. Thanks, man.

Laurent: We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any thoughts about what you've just heard, please don't hesitate to hit us up. A big shout out to Mark Stockwell, our sound mixer and co producer. We love you, man. If you'd like to learn more about the podcast, please visit exitpointpodcast. com. See you on the next [02:30:00] one.