Episode #27 - Robert Pecnik

Robert Pecnik

Laurent Frat: [00:00:00] Hello, friends. Welcome back. For those of you who are new here, exit Point is a podcast that features conversations with some of the world's most extreme athletes, with the intention to extract actionable advice and lessons that we can apply to our lives. If you've already been enjoying the podcast and would like to support our efforts, please consider subscribing on your favorite platform and leaving us a review.

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Laurent Frat: In this episode, we speak with Robert Pesh. Nick. Robert is the director, owner, lead wing, suit designer, and test pilot of Phoenix Fly, one of the world's leading wingsuit manufacturers in Croatia. Robert began his skydiving career in [00:01:00] 1982 and is still regularly BASE jumping with unrelenting enthusiasm.

Laurent Frat: Among other things. We talk about his thoughts on risk and dangers of wingsuit BASE and how his passion for Wingsuit BASE has remained so resilient. So with that, let's get Robbie on the track.

Laurent Frat: I'd like to start with, could you tell us about your life before parachuting? 

.: I. My life before parachuting? yes. There is no so much life before parachuting because I started when I was 15 years old. I was, I basically finished the elementary school, I think you call it elementary, first school which you enter when your kid.

.: and then, I finished that and I start jumping. before that I was a little bit in light athletic was, also playing basketball, just what usually kids do. [00:02:00] But, in very early stage of my life when I was like, I don't know, eight, nine, I started to play with, actually making parasites already, like a models and also was making, plastic model, this al or Matchbox at the time, where you basically glue it all together, all the parts and painted it and so on.

.: So focus was already on everything, which was in the air, but then, As I said when I was 10, like 11, then I saw some movies, war movies with Paratroops, parachuting and kind. I knew that this is something I want to do and as soon as I was able to actually do that, I did it.

.: Yeah. So I was just normal. It was just normal life. I had, I have two brothers, one older, three years older and another [00:03:00] boys is my twin. So we spent a lot of time at countryside of my father, mother, during the summer and spent a lot of time in nature as well. Almost, I can say that we were not really city kids, we were living in capital Zare, but we were in school there. But all the summertime, which is like almost three months period in the summer we spent at the countryside. that was quality time I remember very well, 

Laurent Frat: Okay. I'm curious because I, have to assume that you were of fighting age in the nineties and, the former Yugoslavia was involved in, pretty dark and horrendous war.

Laurent Frat: were you, were you in the military? 

Robert Pecnik: Yes, I was. [00:04:00] back in the days, when we were living in formula Yugoslavia, you had this, Every person had to go to Army, So I did that in Yugoslav Army. I was in Yugoslav army, from, it was a summer, 85 till autumn 86.

Robert Pecnik: So this is mandatory, every young person had to do it. So it was a bit over a year and, There we learned a lot. I can say that, it was not just, wasting time. of course it's in some sort of, depends how you look at it, But since you are young, you don't care too much.

Robert Pecnik: Okay. You just go with the flow. But, we, at least I try to turn that into the quality time anyway, so it was good. I remember only good parts out of it, [00:05:00] bad times and bad things I kind of forget. But then 91, when I was 24, CRO was, fighting for independency from, being part of Yugoslavia as a republic.

Robert Pecnik: And yes, I volunteered, I entered the war in Autumn 91 and spent eight months in the war. Yeah. And it was heavy. It was not easy. It was, it was basically autumn, winter, early springtime, when. And things got better. So the ottoman winter was quite heavy, much harder than, let's say, fighting in the summer, let's say.

Robert Pecnik: but if that sounds strange, but on the other hand, being 24 year old is actually perfect time for that. it's, physically, mentally you are just okay, strongest physically, mentally, let's say still in [00:06:00] development, but, Okay. And, now with the, when I look back 20, what, 20, almost 30 years ago, it's It's okay. it's, it's built up my life experience so well, and definitely left some, very, important, lessons. What I learned back then for the future, and how I actually have to go through my life afterwards that, I still, even though it was terrible time, I can still see some good things which happen due to that, 

Laurent Frat: Yeah, I can imagine. I can't help but think that it left or, imposed some strong lessons about risk and danger that, you've applied to your BASE shopping. [00:07:00] 

Robert Pecnik: Yes. okay. war is a war, it forced you to think about it all the time, but about, especially about this, risk management, I think that the also very important part was the fact that actually I started skydiving very early when I was kid, And it's not the same when, when someone comes into skydiving, when he's 35 or 30 or whatever, even 25, and when you enter, when you are 15, and, The nature of, of our para shooting club was, that was really not just a club like what you can see on the west. It was more like a, club where actually they developing sportsmans sportsmen, so we had a filter. You didn't come there and you pay and you jump. You [00:08:00] had to actually. Pass some exams, be physically, and mentally, ready and good enough to actually pass those exams to be allowed to start jumping, so people I was jumping with were actually all junk kids, we didn't really have, older jumpers, like what you can see now in, on the most of the drops zone, it's almost like a dinosaurs, when I look now, who is actually entering place, back then it was more like a kindergarten, it was really funny to see, but actually, maybe you can find this still in France, like they have this, kind of culture where the, sports university still, cherish possibility to, enter into an iron sports and so on.

Robert Pecnik: But, I would say, as I said, [00:09:00] being young in the sport of skydiving and that what experience definitely developed little bit different view what I have now when I actually doing bay jumping. Yeah, 

Laurent Frat: that's interesting. So it was instead of a, leisure activity, it was, you were involved in a pipeline of a selection for competition, I'm assuming?

Laurent Frat: Or was it, was it all. Directed towards competition, or 

Robert Pecnik: it was directed toward competition, because, the resources were limited. So it was basically driven by the government, because all of us who were actually, doing skydiving as a sport or parachuting back then, how they call it, were, we were selected also to, to be, future part of Yugoslav Paratroop units, Okay. So when I entered Yugoslav Army in 85, I went to para pilot [00:10:00] troops, so that was part of the agreement as well. But on the other hand, in the clubs when we were jumping back then, as a kids, it was, As soon as we got license, like sport license to be basically independent jumper, we were selected to do basically a accuracy or style or r w later on and it was all directed toward the sports.

Robert Pecnik: There was no really fun jumping, in terms like what you see now. 

Laurent Frat: All right. All serious. Yeah. All serious. Do you.

Laurent Frat: Do you remember, the first time you, were exposed to BASE jumping? 

Robert Pecnik: Oh, yes I do. It was, few effects before. when I did my first BASE jump, I had already 3000 skydives, alright. Yeah. that's the, basically that's the [00:11:00] major difference how I see, why I'm where I am and what kind of problems other beers have now, it was 19 8, 19 98.

Robert Pecnik: It was, it was, BR Monte Italy, my first jump. And, I was together actually, my. Friend who was with me was ranch from, you know him. Wow. So 

Laurent Frat: you guys have a history from the beginning? Yeah, 

Robert Pecnik: very from very beginning even. we met six, seven years before that, but he started actually before me, like a couple of months before me.

Robert Pecnik: And I was a bit pissed, like, how the hell you started not even telling me, I rushed into it and basically did my first from Bento and then all three jumps afterwards were already, three different, actually four different objects. [00:12:00] So my next one was, let's say first was Earth, Brent Cliff.

Robert Pecnik: And then the second was bridge. And the, one after one was building and after one was what is missing? Antenna or something. Yeah. Which I did in the land. And then in four, in, in all, four jumps. First four jumps. I already got the number. So this was, it was really funny, but this is how it happens.

Robert Pecnik: Yeah. It was 98 when, I started. Yes. 

Laurent Frat: So you heard about bass jumping and then you like, I gotta do bass for right away. is that, was that your mindset or it just happened to work out like that? No, I 

Robert Pecnik: was following, like I knew because I was very involved in skydiving, and of course when you are into it, you follow, let's say this skydiving magazine back then and Parachutist and some French magazines, and we knew about this, Patrick Pass and all these guys and the, and all these, icons, [00:13:00] iconic persons in the sport.

Robert Pecnik: so I followed that and by the time I actually step on the Brent exit, I traveled the world and was already in some records and met really, known people in skydiving. So this was not new for me, but I was just busy skydiving, so didn't want to miss, very important parts in my skydiving life, And, I was still competing, was very involved in that. So I knew that bass gonna come. Just, I was, not rushing into it, so more or less when my sport career come closer to, to end, then I decided that, okay, it's time to, to basically, go into bay jumping, but also huge development, which I started basically year before, guide me into be jumping as well.[00:14:00] 

Robert Pecnik: So 

Laurent Frat: when you say suit, you mean wing suits or suit or w 

Robert Pecnik: I started, okay. As a kid I started making, jumpsuits. in, in, in 1984, I did my, I made my first jumpsuit, with the groupers and all this stuff. And then I was doing this for my club, all club members had my suits, and so on.

Robert Pecnik: And Alti master this, cautions, holders and everything actually was made by me in my club, so I was involved in sewing and, making templates and so on. But then, wings sits as, wings sits, I saw picture of the garden flying in the canyon. And to me it was like, okay, this is not so complicated to make.

Robert Pecnik: So I just decided to basically make something serious, similar. And, it took me like a couple of weeks, not really [00:15:00] much longer than maybe two, three weeks. And then I did my first job, 97 in September, if I recall correctly. In versa. That was from 

Laurent Frat: Brent? No, That 

Robert Pecnik: was skydiving skydive. Oh, okay. I did my first skydive in, in 97 in the wingsuit.

Robert Pecnik: And then Brio happened on, may wait 

Laurent Frat: before. Sorry, before we go to Brito, how was the, those first jumps in your handmade skydiving, or wingsuit? What, were those like? 

Robert Pecnik: Actually, honestly, but really honestly, I'm not lying here now. when I put that, I also made this cutaway, everything, what I think it was important, it was much, much simpler, cutaway system that the garden actually had it on his suit.

Robert Pecnik: And I had a good feeling about it that I don't see any complication there, So I went to Turbo eight, went to 4,000 Meter to jump out and. [00:16:00] I flew from first, second straight. Nice. Made a turn, come back to Dobson, turn again, go the other direction. Back and forth. That day I did four jumps, even following some four-way, And my thought was like, Jesus, this is super easy, And it was easy, it was tough, complicated. but keep in mind, 3000 times, and, all it's skydiving career, it's not like 3000, whatever. Exactly the same jumps over and over, it was a ca so you knew how to fly your body.

Robert Pecnik: Yeah. Basically it comes to that. Yeah. Yeah. 

Laurent Frat: And then, so at that point, you were involved or designed the first commercial wingsuit. I think Patrick and his buddies in France were making suits for each other and themselves. but you were the first person with, Birdman. Co-owning [00:17:00] Birdman to actually sell suits to the public.

Laurent Frat: Is that 

Robert Pecnik: right? Yeah, that was, the timeline goes pretty much like that. In 98, I did a couple of more prototypes or let's say types of a suit, which were quite similar to Patrick's design. Then I met Tiri from Finland and we formed the Birdman company I was designing and making, and he was pretty much a PR and salesman stuff, what he was doing.

Robert Pecnik: And then we came to Florida. Actually before that we were around Europe, and we. We came to Europe with about 60 suits, what we made beforehand, so just to have those suits in various sizes, for people to try and so on. But Europe actually wasn't really successful because we were mostly kick out from every drop zone we came, because we were like rebels and it was too [00:18:00] dangerous and it was stupid.

Robert Pecnik: And it was really a problem, We didn't expect that it's gonna be so difficult. But actually it was the very difficult couple of. I would say maybe two drops in the UK were, welcome us in, let's say more or less. Nice way rest. No, Europe, Germany is, Germany especially, was horrible, France as well, not really welcoming.

Robert Pecnik: but then we came to Florida and things changed. America is America again. They just saw opportunity out of everything. And, we started in Florida. I remember Mark Truffer, I think from skydiving, he hold skydiving back then magazine. so we made, also, interview with him. And somehow, people there were open-minded for that.

Robert Pecnik: And, Thing just started. and then we went to the [00:19:00] Quincy, how they call it, Quincy World Boogie or something. it was a big event back then, in this, in, in, in Quincy. So we were two years in a row there in 99, 2000, we sold quite a lot of suits, and then business started, it was interesting time.

Robert Pecnik: But what people doesn't know actually, is that, from. Today's point of view, it looks like, okay, what? You make a suit, you just go to drop zone and you just start flying and everything. But actually we were fighting a lots of problem. Mostly bureaucratic problem, guiding problem, teaching problem.

Robert Pecnik: there were lots of our obstacles we had to go through to come to the point where, w shit was, widely, accepted. much harder than what people might think. Yeah. 

Laurent Frat: Yeah, [00:20:00] I can imagine especially what you, when you made those comments about, France and Germany, they are not exactly the most, like liberal, and open to change, especially in, high-risk sports.

Laurent Frat: I, for I, when I, the first time I went skydiving at a French drop zone, I was just, blown away about how, regimented and controlled everything was. it was quite shocking for someone who'd only been jumping in the United States. And even now, the system of rating, as far as like the tail wing having to not extend the feed and it's quite archaic and, and very regimented.

Robert Pecnik: You know how they say, I just read. Sometime ago, I was shal, the French leader, he said like, how to rule the, country which has 200, 256 type of cheese, so, [00:21:00] this says all, French, they have legislation, which is quite complicated. It's, like cars, like everything, what they have, it's, quite French, but also, also with Germany, they were just afraid, big impact on all of that was the fact that, birding or playing wh it wasn't really, didn't have really, nice, nice, statistics, huh?

Robert Pecnik: In terms of fatalities. Even Patrick de Gar, after all he died, how he died in the w even though. It's not really related into flying itself. It was rigging ge it was enough for the, jobs and s to say, no, we don't want that. also French, they had their own tribe there, and those guys who were fantastic.

Robert Pecnik: But I see, I understand why it was difficult for us, [00:22:00] every tribe protect his area and so they did, and time actually smoothed out everything, so it was okay. It sure does. Yeah. 

Laurent Frat: So back to BASE, you were jumping in Brito, you, started to see and developed these wing suits.

Laurent Frat: I'm sure almost immediately you were thinking, wow, okay, these things are gonna be fantastic from the cliff. Tell us, a little bit about the first experiences you had with the WSU BASE. 

Robert Pecnik: Okay. few effects I had, my wings jump was my 10th BASE jump, so my basal experience was not so high. But on the other hand, whoever was around me also, their experience was not so high.

Robert Pecnik: it's, it just, it was different time, simply different time. Sure. That, that you cannot even compare [00:23:00] with nowadays, numbers or, let's say knowledge in general. I remember that day, we had the opportunity to actually not hike up there, but to use a chopper because some American came for some filming.

Robert Pecnik: So they hired chopper and we just sneak in Yai and me, and we get to the top, we pull out the, this two type two different, actually B suits. He had one type, I had another one, And Okay. I, it was like, okay, we felt like it's, the, it's that day, D day for that. Let's see how it's going to be.

Robert Pecnik: I wasn't really afraid of doing this, I was quite certain that after all, it can be just like a normal skydive, where you're not gonna move too much forward. And it's gonna be more like tracking and after all, 10 seconds, you just pull. And, I don't see much danger there, [00:24:00] there were group of German jumpers around, mostly Germans. And what I do remember very well is that when I actually stood on the exit, You could only hear fly. It was complete silence. it, it was so silent that, when you made your first skydive, you know what you remember, canopy opens and complete silence.

Robert Pecnik: Every jumper, remember. So it was basically the same, like my first skydive, when after Canopy opened, you are in the middle of the mountain. it was a, it was like, springtime, it was may, you expecting lots of noises, nature just waking up from winter and so on.

Robert Pecnik: But no, nothing. So everybody were actually expecting to see fatality. this is how, I explained that, But, [00:25:00] Jump went super well. it was like 28 second, flight Eye opened. Okay. It was on heading, I landed to the main area, main landing area, and then Yai repeated exactly the same pattern with exact number.

Robert Pecnik: And, people just couldn't believe. And we as well, we were so exhausted mentally and, I can imagine. Yeah. So that that one jump was, that was it for that day, I didn't have any urge to, to run again, to do a second jump. No, it was very interesting. But I knew that this going, be interesting that we just pulled the dragon out of the, the back, 

Laurent Frat: So you did realize at that moment that potentially that this was gonna be a, life-changing, experience for you. 

Robert Pecnik: That decision that it's gonna be life. changing experience already actually came [00:26:00] just by the fact that we organized the company we were already in making suits for our skydiving trip.

Robert Pecnik: So the, I couldn't pull back from that position, but that brain to jump basically, assured me that yes, this gonna be a, this, that. It's gonna be a big trip, it's gonna be something different, even better than I thought it's gonna be, 

Laurent Frat: And, from then on, because as long as I've known of you and known you, you've been primarily focused on bass jumping your external, presence, with your company.

Laurent Frat: And of course it's massive in the skydiving realm as well, but I've, I see you more as a BASE jumper now than a sky diver would. You would not agree. 

Robert Pecnik: No. No. that's correct because, also, Timeline is when the social [00:27:00] medias and skydiving movies came out and when things starts to be more, more approachable for others, my skydiving career already was coming to my end to end.

Robert Pecnik: Yeah. and then my BASE career actually just started. So of course for the audience, those people who knows me, of course they know me as a wings suiter or wings suit developer and bass jumper, which is correct. And I agree. Yeah. Although my skydiving career is quite nice and it was quite long, but as I said it was in nineties and eighties.

Robert Pecnik: So it's natural that people see me as a bay jumper more. And I, at the end I see myself more as a bay jumper now as well. Of course. Yeah. 

Laurent Frat: so there, there are other smaller manufacturers out now, but there, there really are just two at the forefront of innovation. and, you were there for the [00:28:00] first commercial operation and you've remained there, at the forefront since then.

Laurent Frat: Can you tell us a little bit about your process in research and development? cuz I have to assume that it's changed quite a bit throughout the years, or perhaps not. 

Robert Pecnik: Yeah, that's a, that's very controversial subject, depends. I was thinking a lot about this, where are we as far as development, and I often compare this development with the canopies, skydiving canopy development, one would say that actually canopies, are way different now than they were like 30 years ago.

Robert Pecnik: that are much faster, much better, this and that, And, but then if you look at it and if you really go for data and, so on, not for the feeling and not for the marketing, you would see that actually s [00:29:00] stiletto, the canopy which was made 93, is still basically, good all around canopy and people still jumping with it.

Robert Pecnik: Then you will see that actually, glide ratio of skydiving canopy. It's always statistical or always, theoretical, 2.5 on in, in all charts, and you come to the point where actually you realize it's hydrodynamics and it's about span and lift. And then when it comes to span and lift, you realize that, as long as we have two meter span, It's gonna be that much lift, that much glide, So in terms, if you look theoretically, we didn't really make a big step in this last 10 years. what, really cha, I mean like a glide wise, let's say, what change is that? of course this little improvements in wings suits, what has been made by all the [00:30:00] companies involved, whether Phoenix, Tony o Squirrel or sly, which was back then is that much, bigger numbers of jumpers actually enter into the sport of skydiving, knowledge become much, much bigger.

Robert Pecnik: And what people noticed actually, and what people discussed, actually contributed to, to, to us as a developers, and, also understanding what is best to do in order to get better performance in this area, that area, whatever area actually come, become much better. So I would say there is certain areas which were very better than used to be, like pressurization, smoothness of flying, stability and so on.

Robert Pecnik: Not so much into performance as a like peak [00:31:00] performance, good people back then were able actually to fly pretty much, those. 10 years ago, 15 years ago, let's say 10 years ago, some flights are incredible even now, and which actually shows that as far as, let's say, glide ratio, which is first thing, what people comes.

Robert Pecnik: Up with when it's about the numbers, it's not really changed much and it's not gonna be changed much. This I can also say, but, other huge characteristic actually, which, which helped people to fly easier to actually go through the processes here and so on has been improved a lot.

Robert Pecnik: That's for sure. That's for sure. 

Laurent Frat: so what I'm hearing you say is that, that the overall performance of wing suits hasn't drastically increased over the years, but that, Balance and usability and [00:32:00] accessibility of the suits has improved drastically through the feedback that you've received from the participants that are actually jumping.

Laurent Frat: Yes. 

Robert Pecnik: Is that right? Yes, that's correct. And also very important part, how to actually go through the, through, through the process of learning to fly wings should. That also changed a lot, and it's much easier now for, let's say wings should experts to teach others, because they know. It's already wildly known.

Robert Pecnik: What is the first exercise, second, third, fourth, what is important in BASE, how to start, what to do, what not to do. it's much clearer now than it was like 15 years ago. That's the fact, for sure. 

Laurent Frat: Yeah, that's for sure. The availability to information is much easier. You said something earlier that I thought was pretty interesting about your skydiving and the point of entry.

Laurent Frat: It was, for developing sportsmen and we had a conversation with somebody, [00:33:00] who has since quit Wingsuit bass jumping and bass jumping in general. And, he said he was thinking about getting back into it when he thought that the culture was more serious about safety and was a more, established sport.

Laurent Frat: I think that we're starting to get there. I think that, like you said, there's more available information. People seem in general to follow a more. Reasonable progression. It could also mean that I'm just outta touch and I jump with the people that I know and I'm surrounded by people that maybe, follow a proper progression.

Laurent Frat: But where do you see us, in the state of our activity, our sport as far as, establishing ourselves as something legitimate? 

Robert Pecnik: It's an interesting question and it's very hard to [00:34:00] actually answer that question because, it's same can be applied, let's say how you see, be jumping as a sport itself, So let's start with definition of a bee jumping itself. my opinion is that bay jumping is not a sport at all. It's a skill. So when you have something as a skill, it's hard to develop, that into something which you call it sport because that skill simply does not have elements which are necessary to be called sport.

Robert Pecnik: And then the crowd, which actually entering such activity, they don't follow the sports rules because there is no any rules, And when there is no any rules, people often think that there is no rules also in teaching or learning or, whatever. What is important, Let me tell you one interesting, thing [00:35:00] which, I was always applying on my students when I was doing mentoring.

Robert Pecnik: I never. Taught people be jumping, like having the school or whatever. Because this was not my interest, but I was mentor, to my friends, skydiving friends, one of the rules were that person should not be younger than 27, younger than 27. So you have to be all 27 on, to actually enter BASE jumping.

Robert Pecnik: Why this was important for me, so that I have in front of me person who understands that it's not only about the good things, that also bad and very bad things may happen. I find out that someone who is younger than that has hard time to understand that, he can lose everything.

Robert Pecnik: So why is this important? It's important because, I see now in, in BASE jumping, even though we have lots of [00:36:00] information where you actually can find any information about anything, what you should do, what you not do, how to do it, where to do it, and so on. It's basically, it's no guarantee that person will enter the sport or enter the activity knowing this stuff, so you have available information, but.

Robert Pecnik: Lots of people come still into the program, into the, into jumping, unprepared, versus 20 years ago when you had no information and you were hungry for information, you were seeking for information, and you were digging, and you were finding, and you were asking, and actually you find out because you were afraid that you will enter something with insufficient knowledge and you're gonna be in a problem now, kind of knowledge is around us, bars around us, and we think that, yeah, we know everything.

Robert Pecnik: But basically I've [00:37:00] saw that in skydiving as well, that we know everything. But basically when you go specifically with the question to the person, you find out that he actually has no clue about what he's doing. This is what I find as the biggest, issue in, in, in bay jumping these days.

Robert Pecnik: fluctuation is huge. People are staying in jumping, let's a couple of years, 2, 3, 4, then leave the sport if they survive, but, even though the knowledge is around us, and you can ask many people, I, it seems that, that. These kids nowadays, they're not really getting everything what they need to.

Robert Pecnik: Also, the problem is that they are rushing into BASE jumping, skydiving. That's another element, maybe that's was mistakes saying 200 jumps and then you're free to go. [00:38:00] I think it should be more like on the very individual level, maybe someone is ready after 30 jumps because of, I don't know, other experience in life.

Robert Pecnik: Someone is not ready even after thousand skydives, so it's hard to judge there. basic schools and how to develop these schools. It's a much bigger problem than it may appear on the first site. This is how I see. 

Laurent Frat: Yeah, there, there's a lot there. I think the age of 25 or 26 makes a lot of sense because of, what we understand is that the human brain doesn't come to full development in a male, particularly after 25 years old.

Laurent Frat: So having your brain actually functioning at a hundred percent is probably a smart idea before you get involved in something like BASE jumping that has, tremendous consequences. and then, you're saying that, people have a lot of knowledge, but then perhaps it doesn't equal [00:39:00] wisdom, right? just because they know things know, factually and statistically and operationally that maybe it hasn't, Been able to distill into a wisdom of application.

Laurent Frat: how does someone go about doing that? So you're saying that if someone who is seeking out all the knowledge finds it online is, maybe lucky enough to have somebody who's been around for a while and gets some good guidance. Are you saying that people should just forget about bass jumping for a while and enjoy skydiving until they're, past 26 years old and thousands of jumps?

Laurent Frat: Or, is that something that's individual? 

Robert Pecnik: definitely it's individual. I'm just saying from my perspective, from my experience, I wasn't ready. I, doubt if I would be actually jumping, starting earlier, even though it is. Back then was much harder because equipment were [00:40:00] not on a level, which is now, it's uncomparable what we have now.

Robert Pecnik: And basically 25, 30 years ago. that's something also probably regular pay jump and nowadays has no clue, when it canopy, like it would be, what is this? magnum, seven cell canopy with, with the a ABC lines only. I would not even put on my shoulder this anymore.

Robert Pecnik: Ever, but back then that that was normal. So it's hard to say what somebody else has to do. I'm just saying that, there is no need to rush, Of course it's, it sounds like I, I repeating, what others saying, but it's true. cliff are there, it's gonna be there bridges as well, and I still think that actually, spending more time in skydiving and grab every possible [00:41:00] knowledge, from skydiving and then maybe even paragliding and other similar disciplines would help to understand, be jumping much better than just rushing on Brent.

Robert Pecnik: And do, jump on 3, 4, 5, 20, 30, whatever, because tell me like how you see 22 year old jumper, who just. Made his 200 skydive and standing on Brent to exit and looking forward to his wonderful BASE career. He looks invincible in his brain. He's invincible. he thinks he's ready.

Robert Pecnik: He's, he's gonna start charging, he gonna be filming everything and he's gonna be great. Mostly it is, and later on he find out that he's not ready and he's basically crashed and, so hard. 

Laurent Frat: Yeah. I like what you said about, adding some other [00:42:00] sports in there. I think it's important to do some sort of mountain activity or, Some, sort of activity that has consequences because in skydiving alone, we rely mostly on the green light to turn on as our decision making of whether or not it's safe to go. And, that's something that, you can off often hear in Bruno is like, is a load going? are we, is it, and it's yeah, the bus is going or there's a taxi, or whatever your means of getting the top may be going.

Laurent Frat: But yeah, that, that decision making, needs to come from activities that have. Potentially less drastic, pen pitch consequences. Yeah. And penalties. Absolutely. and I think that we can get that from climbing from, paragliding and, of course they have significant, repercussions for bad mistakes as well.

Laurent Frat: But you can make a small [00:43:00] fall, you can have a bad day in the mountains and it can get worse and worse. And, this all comes from, an accumulation of small mistakes where an accumulation of small mistakes in BASE is generally going to result in fatality. Do you think that BASE jumping is growing or shrinking?

Robert Pecnik: From what I can follow through, let's say production and what I see around this, globe, I think it's not really growing, but it's, fluctuation is much faster. rotations are much faster than used to be. There is lots of people who actually go through the first courses and, many of them stops.

Robert Pecnik: Many of them continues, but only for two, three years. And then other generation goes and again, it's almost [00:44:00] whatever outer activity, it's way more accessible now. people just try that as well as biking and scuba diving or whatever, draft rafting and so on. Spend there some time, see if they like it or not, whether they like it.

Robert Pecnik: They enjoy a couple of years until life change and so on. So in overall, I don't think it's growing, but. More people are involved with that's for sure. I see. 

Laurent Frat: Yeah. I said, a while back online somewhere that, I thought wing suiting as a sport was dying. and you said wing suiting or bass jumping isn't a sport at all, but I think something, an athletic activity that includes competition as a sport.

Laurent Frat: and if we look at competitions, what do we have nowadays? There, there are no bass jumping competitions. Really? 

Robert Pecnik: oh yes. [00:45:00] not only bay jumping, skydiving, sport element of skydiving dying and dying fast. This is something which saddened me a lot, and as in skydiving, this component is dying.

Robert Pecnik: This has repercussions, of course in bass as well. But as I mentioned before, I don't see bass as a sport. I see as a skill. And that's why also we have problems to organize sport within bass competitions. My brother, who was actually a professional athlete, runner, 400 meter, he was with me in LA in 2010 or 11 I think.

Robert Pecnik: When was this? speed competitions flying, BASE race. Yeah. Yeah. And he said it, he said look, now we gonna be, it's a second day, it's going to be semifinal and final [00:46:00] round. Yeah. So hype is up, let's see who gonna win and look around you.

Robert Pecnik: There is no bay jumpers. Nobody, everybody left for jumping. in other sports. In other sports, you competing, But the end, everybody are interested and everybody want to cherish the moment of, of a winner. Glory, So here in Beijing jumping, we gonna find in, two minutes who gonna win without bay jumpers, without even competitors who were competing and they against those two, who gonna declare who is better?

Robert Pecnik: this says a lot. You see my point? Yeah. You see my point? 

Laurent Frat: I, I do. 

Robert Pecnik: And then I was in Kuala lump year 2001 where it was a world, whatever was World Bay jumping, championship, whatever [00:47:00] they call it, Yeah. And, It was nice competition, but I was laughing basically because we competing in what, in a kish, after all.

Robert Pecnik: And canopy opening, Okay. So what we did in order to make legal jumps from Petros, we call it competition, pace competition, which was actually competing, accuracy, jumping from the plane, hitting the target, all canopy openings, which you can do from, I don't know. Crane or even plane or we just have to wrap it somehow to get legality, so that we are safe and nice.

Robert Pecnik: And also, bay jumpers are hypocrites in general, including me. when you have to, when you have to, let's say, get the permit to jump something which is interesting for you, you're gonna call Bay Jump as the safest sport in the universe, because you see, nothing happens.

Robert Pecnik: It's gonna, is [00:48:00] always this and that and we are super professional and everything is nice and fine and this and that. Okay? You get the Tive jump, that, that's everything fine, everything end super nice for you. You put in a log book another object. But then when it's somehow about how cool we are, then in the media you will also say that are lots of people dying.

Robert Pecnik: This is the most dangerous sport in the planet because everything is so and We have to decide what we are, how to approach, let's say public. If that is important at all. I think it's actually less and less important and, we have to just face the fact that actually, we are not sport in a, in a, sense what sport is.

Robert Pecnik: as I explained, what happened in la and this is going to be, this is going to stay. It's not gonna change because we are rebels who actually hoping around the mountains searching for exits [00:49:00] and sneaking into buildings and this is what we are. I don't see future of a sport element in BASE.

Robert Pecnik: Whatsoever. Actually, I see that in skydiving actually is dying as well because of other problems. expenses is becoming expensive. It's becoming hard to organize and whatever, 

Laurent Frat: So this is really the challenge, right? Because BASE jumping is, the most pure expression of freedom, in sport or activity or skill or however you wanna say it.

Laurent Frat: and usually people that are drawn to that sort of activity are, wanna remain free. Yep. but it also adds some challenges as far as site preservation and it also, in safety and then like you said, in the aspect of sport. but I'm curious, I think this is a good way to, to segue [00:50:00] into, your thoughts on risk and danger within BASE because, like it, I, think that.

Laurent Frat: We could maybe throw on, an equation for, experience and BASE as, number of jumps, times, years in the sport, right? Because you don't have to do a lot of jumping, but then be paying attention to what's going on. And every year, you get a little bit more and more understanding of what it is that we're actually doing.

Laurent Frat: So I would say that you're someone who is, at the very top of experience. How do you see risk in BASE, and how do you categorize it for yourself and the friends around you? 

Robert Pecnik: I have few things which are very important for me. When I started to jump, I realized very quickly that what I still hold is one [00:51:00] of the most important, things.

Robert Pecnik: What every pay jumper has to apply in his BASE career is, to choose to jump with whom he jumps. because being surrounded with the smart jumpers and, jumpers who actually can't think about the risk, it's very important because no matter how experienced you are, you can be also trapped into, locked into some thinking that everything's gonna be fine, and the jumps looks okay, and I don't see any problem whatsoever.

Robert Pecnik: Having others who actually see different things may save your life once you are not ready to save your life. So I was applying that, that rule to myself from the very early, stage of my career. And, for sure a couple of times, those guys were, I'm thankful to them [00:52:00] for me being still here, because if you, of course, some, some, bad things about having that rule is also very visible.

Robert Pecnik: If you are basically, let's say less travel because you depend on this group, with whom you're jumping, you are less traveling alone. You are not maybe doing all the jumps, what you would prefer and so on. But as long as you know that you have the rule for your own safety, it's okay. Second rule, which I think is very important, and I also apply to myself through all these 30 years or 26 now seasons, is that balance is important.

Robert Pecnik: believe me, if I would be. Free and be able to do 250 or 300 pay jumps in one season, probably that're gonna be my last [00:53:00] season in pay Jumping. I like to balance this with other activities. riding bikes go with kids, being in a nature, walking what whatever, being on the sea. just not only pay jump and this is something which, it's hard for Young Bay jumpers to understand because I understand them, they want in a short period of time, to, to accumulate as much as possible, knowledge and jumps and so on.

Robert Pecnik: But for inner balance, that's important, so to be able to see picture better and to make, to have decision process much clearer and much nicer and beneficial for your own safety. So I always suggest others, to slow down. Not in terms do not jump, but just, because I know myself when it's a jumping day, I jump a lot.[00:54:00] 

Robert Pecnik: I want to do, not one, I want to do two, three, whatever, But on those days where I decide not to jump, like for example, you go into nature, you hiking, you do something else. And if you make a little survey and you see all the older jumpers around you, you will see that they do exactly that.

Robert Pecnik: they're not only running for jumps whenever it's possible, but they rather choose some other activity. Paraag, gliding, scuba diving, whatever, So I think this, the most important is to choose with whom you're gonna jump and balance in your life in general for safety, and then, Decision when it comes to the, to, let's say whatever jumps, which is new for me, that's another set of questions, how you do it.

Robert Pecnik: and I believe every jumper has its own rule and, [00:55:00] which he 

Laurent Frat: follows. But I'm curious about your own personal, process at the exit. I think, considering your experience level and how long you've been doing this, that, you probably don't find yourself often at an exit point where you're questioning yourself or doubting.

Laurent Frat: It's already been decided as in the morning when you're, getting ready to go. Is that the case, or do you still, are you still challenged. With decision making? 

Robert Pecnik: I 

Robert Pecnik: am, I can see that I changed personally. if I compare what kind of jumper I was, let's say 10 years ago, and now I am different, one, it's not the same person anymore.

Robert Pecnik: 10 years ago, I would take little bit more risk, even though, I knew, okay, it's probably gonna be okay. But I would, let's say, go for a little bit [00:56:00] more risk, in order to make that very jump. nowadays I am, my criteria for, let's say opening new exits are a little bit stiffer, little bit stronger.

Robert Pecnik: And I am also, very stiff to eat. like popular nowadays is laser data and and yeah, it's gonna be okay. Everything is fine. Super. I agree. Yeah. Only what I like to add also, what if I sleep, if I do something simple, which of course happened, inexperienced people, because we experienced people we know you know about that.

Robert Pecnik: So that automatically means it's not gonna happen to us. statistics shows that it happens to us sexually even more than to inexperienced people because of that mistake. It's not gonna happen to us. it happened to me actually five years ago on, on one Slovenian Cliff, which was [00:57:00] slightly positive and not particularly long.

Robert Pecnik: I slipped. Actually drastically, very bad, And Wow. Yeah. And, 

Laurent Frat: and what was it like there's pebbles or what would like poor or grassy? I was a 

Robert Pecnik: grassy, rocky grassy, and I didn't really, it just happened. I didn't actually put enough attention to it, So I pushed, and both legs just went up, And the next fragment, on a slightly positive, I found myself ba basically close to scorpion position. And believe me, I actually stretch my back better than Nadia che, probably, this is gymnastic in order to keep my sh my chest presented to the air, and, for five seconds, I was flying basically like a meter of the wall all the time.

Robert Pecnik: so after that, of course, you change your mind and said, okay, it [00:58:00] happened, Okay. I cannot go through this. Ah, just happened, nevermind. It's mine. Yeah. And, I just add this little equation into my calculations for later on, so what if I want to have enough room to clear if that happens.

Robert Pecnik: So if that means that I'm not going to open super short, actually, I'm fine with that. I'm totally fine with that. Especially what I like to add, those super duper short exit usually has a city line and, my flying, I enjoying flying lines. I'm not lying, I'm not really flying who cruising, and, enjoying landscape and so on.

Robert Pecnik: I like to fly the line, so from my first appearance in bay jumping, this is who I am. This is, Who I'm going to stay. And knowing that I know that I'm not even interested for, let's say some lines, which are [00:59:00] just another exit. and I'm fair with that, also, I like to say always to, to new jumpers.

Robert Pecnik: the, nobody dies in a smart way, it doesn't exist, it's always mistakes. And more stupid mistakes is you are just more pissed. So if you look through that perspective, decisions are quite clear what you have to follow, so this is how I see, 

Laurent Frat: I have a mental exercise that I play and that's, usually if I, having any doubt, I write my own BASE fatality entry and, try to envision the mistake that I could make.

Laurent Frat: it's like there's a certain power to negative thought. everyone's always saying, be positive. Be positive. But if you're not, Looking at the negative, then you don't see what could potentially, bite you. And, I think that, like you say, slipping may be the scariest element for me.[01:00:00] 

Laurent Frat: cuz that's al that's always one that can just like, you make a, just a tiny, everybody slips and their life, you slip on a, when you're exiting the house and it's raining outside or you know you're going a walk and you're not paying attention and you slip. It happens to us. We're humans.

Laurent Frat: But there's another element too that I, I see as like the big, crux is, our openings, and tension knots in particular. do you have any thoughts about tension knots or. Have you had one? Do you have emergency procedures for them? And, do you have 

Robert Pecnik: any? I had one very small one.

Robert Pecnik: I just actually lift my hat up and I notice it and it's cleared, although now when we talk, I'll, tell you something, which actually I'm doing now for four years and together with Andre at tir, because I was involved with a [01:01:00] company since 1994. I was a test jumper for them as well, for a, good part of, existence of a tier.

Robert Pecnik: And, I have one article actually almost ready to be introduced. my thoughts about tension knots and why this happening. And it's a little bit different than. After this four years of testing and so on, why this happening? And I have to see with Andre when we gonna go out with that and so on.

Robert Pecnik: true. I think this what we are preparing gonna give some answer to, to, to what to do and what not to do. Because since I start to apply that and it's about, central rubber bands, central, it has something with that, with primary s sewing, and also with construction of the canopy itself, and I think this gonna give [01:02:00] some answers, positive answers to the future because, all the jumpers who've been applying that change on cannabis hasn't got any tension notes ever in the last four years.

Robert Pecnik: So Statistically that's good. so I believe it's gonna change the. At least we'll save same lives in the future. opening itself, I can say that, since, first shooting, when we start BASE mix suit, and now it's drastically changed to better, because, of the benefic benefits, new Wings actually can create slowing speed, different presentation to relative wind flaring and so on in a post what used to be before, full speed and then just bang, and then ba yes and then pular moment, and then you put yourself into [01:03:00] line twist, not really, and so on.

Robert Pecnik: So this element of safety in wind shooting BASE improved a lots. And I see less and less problem with that, to the point where actually this, let's say escape sleeves and stuff like that are not really so essential, They might be like six, seven years ago, but as I said, about the, tension that I would not say much right now, because soon we are gonna go out with something which might, then we can talk again 

Laurent Frat: about it.

Laurent Frat: Okay, great. then we'll talk about it then. I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys have, put together. that, that's interesting too. Yeah, I, for sure. But I was thinking about that just the other day because, like you said, in the last couple of years, all of my openings are just so smooth and fantastic.

Laurent Frat: am I getting soft? because when I have that tension, when I [01:04:00] have a tension nod or I have line twist or something, it's gonna, it's gonna be so out of the ordinary of cuz like you said, it was like five years ago. Or, maybe even longer, it was like, almost like getting into a car accident.

Laurent Frat: Like each one was like, I didn't come into this with the sort of experience in parachuting that you did. and I learned a lot in the mountains, unfortunately. but, I think with luck, I was able to, to find my place self where I am now. but yeah, really loving my openings and, it's this is good. Good for us. going back to your risk, or your comfort with risk, do you think that has anything to do with, you becoming a father? 

Robert Pecnik: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I [01:05:00] often said, since I already said that, I'm very into, when I beening I'm into basically terrain flying.

Robert Pecnik: I am saying that actually I adjust my risk management so that I'm not so close anymore. even though, people have problem to understand that, but since you a flyer as well, you would understand like many others, it's, if you move away a meter, that's a lot, but it's not about actually how close you are to something.

Robert Pecnik: It's, whole understanding of what you're gonna do and when you're gonna do, then just how close you are at a certain moment in your flight, Put it in different words. It's, let's say maybe 10 years ago, I would pull some line, even in conditions which are not really good.[01:06:00] 

Robert Pecnik: in terms of winds or turmoils or sinks or visibility. Nowadays, this is not an even question, I would do something when conditions are, let's say, close to perfect, this much. I change my approach to jumping and what I mentioned before, this extra, altitude, let's say on exits, on, on new exits, or even on all the exits, so to calculate possibility of sleeping or bad exit or whatever, So I am thinking that it's possible to have a nice career and to continue BASE jumping, and control your risk management. even though you are a father of 2, 3, 4, whatever kids you are, and there are some people who has kids and some frenches who are. Extraordinary good jumpers, and still does that.

Robert Pecnik: So [01:07:00] after all, risk is always around us, so it, would be stupid to say, ah-ha, you quit that and you are safe now. also in bay jumping, bay, jumping window is, it's a risky spot. Has one good thing is that, and that is that, when we jump, we are exposed to risk actually quite short period of time.

Robert Pecnik: let's say alpinism or some climbing, where you expose hours into the same kind of risk, right? Or paragliding or speed riding where actually, it's similar or long, longer. So it's not all the elements talking against bay jumping, I think understanding is first necessary to, to.

Robert Pecnik: To understand what we are talking about. So definitely I will continue jumping. I will not quit because I have kids, because, anyway, there is no guarantees, But, I will be responsible and, will try to be as much as responsible I [01:08:00] can be in order to well be a father, 

Laurent Frat: Absolutely. that sounds very similar to, my own perspective.

Laurent Frat: I know that, I struggled at first, with fear and another element that comes into me and my practice too is that my wife is, Ellen is also jumping. it's, we're exposing our kids to almost twice as much of, the possibility of, losing a parent. But, one of the things that, you know, like when someone who doesn't jump asks you about that, oh, now that you have kids, are you gonna stop jumping?

Laurent Frat: it's I. this is who we are and Exactly. and it brings so much, joy and color to my life. And, it adds such dimension that, I can't, one of the risks that I see of not doing it is regret and feeling like I gave up a big [01:09:00] part of myself. I think it's important for parents to, take precautions and, plan for the worst.

Laurent Frat: not just leave your kids as orphans with no money or means of survival. but in a responsible way. we're not just throwing risk into the wind. It's, it's, we're trying to live our best lives at the same time. 

Robert Pecnik: I agree. Yeah. 

Laurent Frat: Let's talk about, another thing that I think that you've been, quite a, At the forefront of innovation.

Laurent Frat: And some might even think it's a step backwards, but, it's really changed BASE in a big way is, the onesie. Oh yeah. I mean it's, when you go to a popular jumping site like here in Mag Long or in Louder Brun in, there's, they're people are jumping onesies and, people are jumping one suit, piece tracking [01:10:00] suits and it's extremely popular.

Laurent Frat: tell us about the development of that and what you think about it. 

Robert Pecnik: A little bit of history before I start, with onesie is the fact that actually somewhere around 2011, Dukes. Yeah. Came to me and said oh, Robbie, you have to make this onesie. so he already gave the name of it, onesie because, look, this, what was this, French, cruise?

Robert Pecnik: What was his, you know this Michelin looking? Yeah, the cruise. Yeah, cruise, Look, this, and Fred and beans and, and I was like, okay, Yeah, Super nice, But at that point I was so much into wing that to me it was just really sounded like step backward, And I, okay. I will work on it, I need to get good idea how to make it. I don't want to just, make something serious similar, so to be basically another Michelin looking [01:11:00] suit, and it took me like solid five years after I came out with Von Z and, What to say?

Robert Pecnik: I was blown out, like when I jumped it and when I see actually what I got in hands. Even though the first ones, the very first one was difficult to fly, balance was a little bit off. we corrected quite quickly, but I was basically surprised what I developed, even now when you look like, The surface of that thing, with the glide, what it actually provides, and especially easiness of handling and how it flies, where basically an inexperienced jumper, all what he has to do is to put hands back and be flat, should, does the rest, let's say 80%, at least the next twenties, up to skill.[01:12:00] 

Robert Pecnik: it's incredible. I do think that these ones actually changed a lot, current BASE, BASE scene, and it works very well for safety, especially as a transition tool from tracking or let's say slick jumping from the clips toward wings should flying once you. Really helps Jumper to understand the speed lift, stall elements of the flying.

Robert Pecnik: And, I'm very happy actually. We have onesie out, not from just commercial point of view, that it allows my company, good progress and so on, but also from the safety point of view. And I believe that in the future, because of this fluctuation, because of the, the fact that actually people, more people entering the sport, but, staying there, less time.[01:13:00] 

Robert Pecnik: I believe that once you're gonna be, or let's say monos tracking shoot, gonna be, the, one of the standards. Standards, yes. For the future, which will actually allow people to, to enjoy the line, enjoy the speed cover distance, but on the other hand, stay safe because True is, statistically canopies in, onesie opens pretty much all the time on heading No line twist.

Robert Pecnik: No, Any problems. Hands are free. You can pull lower, you can grab your toggles faster. it has, it kept all the, good part of the, let's say low openings in in a without wings suits. It kept, within the, jump while. Still allows you to fly fast and further away.

Robert Pecnik: So I'm super happy with the Onei and I do see some [01:14:00] improvements as well, where I can actually make it better still. 

Laurent Frat: Yeah. Exciting. Yeah. I agree with you there. There's definitely, an element of less complexity. like you don't have to unzip your legs, you don't have to unzip the arms. the flaring and pitching process is, More or less.

Laurent Frat: Less shame. More basic. Yeah. Yeah. and I think one of the safety elements that's really attractive too is that when you get off balance at the exit, your arms are free to help balance yourself out. whereas you're confined in the straight jacket of the wings. And we have common friends who, who have quit jumping wingsuits off of cliffs and but can continue to jump with, onesie.

Laurent Frat: Onesie. 

Robert Pecnik: Yeah. Yeah. I see myself, within let's say 5, 6, 7 years, whatever, I don't know, but I see myself in the future more in onesie. [01:15:00] as close as I gonna be, like 60, 62, 3, whatever age, it's not far from that. I'm not far from that age, but I see myself actually doing more ones in the future for sure.

Robert Pecnik: So you can 

Laurent Frat: still use your cane as you get to the exit point?

Robert Pecnik: Yeah. Yeah. for that, that's actually is getting, Harder and harder, but I work on that as well. lots of activities. 

Laurent Frat: you are working on that, right? I see, we, we follow each other on Strava and, you're putting up some impressive, regularity in your running and your training.

Robert Pecnik: I'm surrounded with goats, in Slovenia and Italy, Dolomites, young youngsters, 30 years old. I have to keep up with them. And I found out that only way to keep up with them is actually to put lots of energy into being in good shape, because it's not only up to following them, but once you get [01:16:00] on the exit, and you have to be fresh in order to actually perform well.

Robert Pecnik: That's another element which people cannot see on a video. jumper standing on the exit, but you cannot see mental or a physical, condition of the jumper. And that element is super important. So I find out that. If I want to continue in a positive and progressive way, this is what I have to do, and I'm doing with the happiness.

Robert Pecnik: it changed a lot also, my, my approach to jumping. Yeah. So I advise people to actually do exercise a lot and do something in that, that to God, 

Laurent Frat: it's great. let's talk about balance in your life. Exercise is a massive help in as far as staying balanced mentally and physically.

Laurent Frat: I, one of the questions that I had for you was about longevity because you've stayed excited about jumping for so [01:17:00] long in, in activity that, sees people quitting usually in two years. And I think you've already answered this question, as far as through balance and, and, Does physical activity and charging with the young guys up the mountain, and staying fit, add to, an element of longevity for you in BASE?

Robert Pecnik: Absolutely. for years already now, after being 26, 7 seasons in BASE jumping, it's not about jumping anymore much because most of the jumps I already did, so as I explained, I'm not rushing into opening new exit just for new exit because this is not interest for me. It's more interest about flying.

Robert Pecnik: I like quality flying and, and, definitely, to continue. I like actually the group of people I'm jumping with, I'm enjoying actually whole day, since we start. [01:18:00] We meet, then since we, do a hike and land and so all this, energy is what actually attract me to keep going, And, The, it's hard for me to say that, tomorrow I'm going jumping that I going to, experience something new, something different. I know what I'm going to experience, I probably know what exit I'm gonna jump and so on. But I just find it that it's something like you said, if I'm going to decide to quit, big part of me gonna be sad, And, The most important element is that I don't see, I can see, I cannot see the reason why to quit, just because I'm like, what, 57? or just because, not many [01:19:00] people of your age are jumping or just because it's too dangerous. These are all questions you can ask you, and you can just kick your shoulders and continue, because okay, I'm not filtering, I'm not feeling, bad.

Robert Pecnik: I'm not feeling, that I'm not capable of doing this in a proper way. so why to quit, So I, I believe that with the proper, training with the proper, Preparation And mindset. Yeah. Mindset. Yeah, mindset. Missing me. Yeah. With the proper mindset, we can go and continue jumping.

Robert Pecnik: Okay. I will adjust what I said probably as I will do more ones in the future, probably as I gonna start feeling that maybe wings, it is complicated because of those reasons, zippers, legs, this and that, because, we are not gonna get better, physically we are gonna degrade.

Robert Pecnik: I'm definitely aware of that, [01:20:00] But also, after all being that long time in a, in BASE jumping answer, is there, what is important? Look, longevity, because, Nobody's died in a smart way. Whatever you did in your career, as far as good line, whatever you flew, whatever, whatever rat shit you did, nobody really cares.

Robert Pecnik: and everything got forgotten within a day, And also people who died got forgotten within a day, that's sad. But that's true. my, my good friend, Chico, he said, after all, it sounds very rough, after all your kids, if they're not too young, and your mama going to suffer and nobody else after all.

Robert Pecnik: and that's true. [01:21:00] this. it's a tough subject for the end, but basically, if you think about it, he pointed I think it's important to actually set a goal. if you laugh, bee jumping, so much longevity is the way to go. For sure. 

Laurent Frat: I definitely agree with that.

Laurent Frat: That's a lot of profound, statements right there and, and food for thought for a lot of us. Before we go, or before I let you go, there's one thing that I want to talk about and your thoughts about, manu competition amongst manufacturers and a subsequent, in quotes, brand war. what do you think about some of the tribalism that is surrounded in BASE.

Robert Pecnik: Yeah, that's, okay. I have a privilege to be basically the first [01:22:00] company present in, in the world of, skydiving bay jumping with the wings. Yeah. And, since I was, first I was the subject, I may say, I was the subject to attack, which is natural, whatever company came after they wanted to be better than the Phoenix play. Which is totally natural, because that's a, very simple way how the market actually works.

Robert Pecnik: Yeah. So I was Stoney then actually Squid came and and so on. But, I think it's important for jumpers to know one very important thing about me, when I started company, I started company not to be the biggest and the best. I started company [01:23:00] because it was really challenging in order to see if this will even work, And with that company, when actually made my first wingsuit also, I was developing Wingsuit for myself and how I see Wingsuit flying. So you are long enough in a sport and you remember Sky Flyer. Type of a suit, remember, right? Yes. And if you see Sky, if you remember Sky Flyer, and then if you see Vampire, now what is common?

Robert Pecnik: This hole between the legs and the deflector, right? And since then, I was always quite obs obsessed with vampire style wings, suit with this hole, with this deflector, with this. Because for me that was the style of flying, which I always liked it. And the truth is that I always developed suit in order to make me fly better.[01:24:00] 

Robert Pecnik: And then second thought was what market wants, which is. Different, or at least I believe it's different than what is now. where we listen market and then we fulfill what market needs. they're like bigger suits, smaller suits. That suits back then was different for me, But also I never, as a owner of Phoenix Fly, I never really wanted to expand to, let's say, size qui is, or even what Tony is, because I wanted to have my life next to having company.

Robert Pecnik: that's one thing also, developing company in the country, which was formerly East Country. Now you're thinking what is the problem there? But actually there is a lot of problem, [01:25:00] We were not like on the west where, you have your own company and it's, coming something from, let's say Germany automatically it's fantastic, it's good product and so on.

Robert Pecnik: developing wings, shoot in Slovenia in 1998, how that sounds to, let's say some guy from Denmark. You see my point? Okay. Yes. So I was lucky that actually this was not even the question when this W came out in 99, because it was so revolutionary new. It was so important that actually it's even available to mass market that nobody really didn't care about from where it comes.

Robert Pecnik: I thought that this corner, the fact that actually she's gonna be produced in formal socialist country or communist like West likes to say, gonna play [01:26:00] important role, but actually didn't play a role at all. it's interesting, nowadays when I think about it, it's interesting. It's just because it was Robert Nik and it was basically first commercial wings.

Robert Pecnik: It, if someone now in Ukraine, let's say, starts Wings IT company or in Slovakia, think about it, Romania, even now like 2022, it has repercussions. it's. It's different, So I was back then when I started that I faced lots of problem and lots of doubt what it's gonna be.

Robert Pecnik: And my goals were going along with that, just to survive and have happy time and do something I like and do it for myself and then for the market. So I was doing green shit for myself and for the market. how many companies ca can say that nowadays, not [01:27:00] only in flying, just in general, so this is the difference.

Robert Pecnik: So I didn't want ever to be the biggest to be, let's hundreds employed workers to feed market next day. I knew in a sense that this is not possible, but more importantly, I didn't want that. so that's, and now competition when it comes in, all that, I'm not thinking that, actually, I'm aware that I'm not the biggest shareholder of the, wings market.

Robert Pecnik: Not gonna ever be, but I still cherish the fact that actually we are doing very good, but that we are actually producing some cool stuff in wings suits, and especially also in a mono area like wanes and track shoots. So we are doing good, and people still looking at us, [01:28:00] and some see some good things.

Robert Pecnik: I'm not, but it's up to them. I'm totally fine with that. I'm not, I don't think I'm, the one who boosting the brain war because I really have no need for that, I don't believe that. Also, actually, I believe that some jumpers or some people who actually may be seeing benefit of being super loyal, boosting some stuff like that, But being super loyal is what, at the end of the day, it's hard religions. What actually pisses me off most of the time is I seen that brain war at the beginning of the canopy piloting, if you remember, PD versus Carus and so on, remember 20 years ago when that started on the pounds around America, but they, 

Laurent Frat: I nodded my head, but I wasn't around at that [01:29:00] point.

Laurent Frat: Yeah. so 

Robert Pecnik: you were conforming that brand were actually died out in let's say period of six, seven years, and nowadays, You can't really fail. it's always present, but it's in more, in a level of let's say jokes and so on. I believe that, with the time, our society gonna be grown enough and smart enough to, let this, fade slowly, it would be good, but if not, okay, I'm okay with it.

Robert Pecnik: I don't know. it's, difficult question why that happens, but, I think it's this super loyalties is that, maybe you know the answer to it, as long as we're gonna have less and less super loyal customers is gonna be less and less I dunno, it's hard to say. 

Laurent Frat: I think everyone is, producing some very impressive [01:30:00] products these days and, it's healthy for the consumer because, Innovation is coming from all angles.

Laurent Frat: Absolutely agree. It makes a lot of options. And, 

Robert Pecnik: if I may add, for example, last couple of seasons, lots of people visiting also Slovenia area where I jump, and I truly don't care which shoot they have. I show them, places around and, oh, I'm trying to be nice and I'm, maybe, I'm not nice all the time, like publicly, but believe me, I'm, 

Laurent Frat: I don't know.

Laurent Frat: You're Baltic. You're Baltic. Nice. 

Robert Pecnik: I would say maybe I'm direct, it's I dunno, but you are the one who would judge that, I cannot judge that area for myself. So 

Laurent Frat: that, that is, [01:31:00] I've always, I've met you on, a few occasions and, we've had some correspondence, over some, issues and questions that I had, and I've always considered you someone, that's, an authority on the subject.

Laurent Frat: And I've really valued our conversation today and all the feedback and information that you provided me over the years. thank you very much Robert, and, I look forward to talking to you later when you guys come out with your, attention not report. 

Robert Pecnik: Thank you very much, Lao it was pleasure for me to be a part of your, podcast and yeah.

Robert Pecnik: See you another time, huh? All right. Yeah. Thank you.

Laurent Frat: We hope you enjoyed this episode of Exit Point. Big shout out to Mark Stockwell, our co-producer and editor. I don't know where we'd be in this project without him. If you see him on the street, give him a [01:32:00] big high five and thank him for everything he's done. And remember, we love hearing from you, so any comments, questions, suggestions on future episodes, please feel free to hit us up, contact information in the description.

Laurent Frat: Until then, see you next time.