Episode #3 - Chris Byrnes
Chris Byrnes
Laurent Frat: [00:00:00] Welcome to the exit point podcast. I'm Laurent frat. And with me is Matt blank. And today we're speaking with Chris Burns, who is a super talented wingsuit base jump pilot. And, we're here to talk to him about a few things today. One, he is a very successful competitive wingsuit skydiver and base jumper.
Laurent Frat: We want to talk to him a little bit about his competition record and what it took to get there. And lately he's been opening some super spicy wingsuit points. And, he's just a super stoked dude whose excitement is contagious. And, we're really looking forward to talking today about that. Matt, you don't know Chris personally, what are some of the things that you're interested in talking about with him today?
Matt Blank: first and foremost, I'd love to talk to him about what it means to be a good wingsuiter. In the past, that's [00:01:00] been pretty subjective. And now with things like Sky Derby, which are putting down metrics and categories to try and define what a good wingsuiter is, I'd like to talk to him about how he perceives those quantifiable metrics, since he is the one that is Topping the charts in almost every category.
Matt Blank: I'd also like to talk to him about what tools and techniques he's using to train. because, honestly, it'd be nice to give some information to people who are trying to get to that level. And certainly as somebody that is consistent as him at, being excellent in the sport, he's, he must have some tips and tricks that we can pass on to the next generation.
Matt Blank: And then lastly, I would love to talk to him about his life philosophy. People that are at the cutting edge, like him, flying these epic lines usually have an interesting life perspective that allows them to push into these, zones where a lot of people didn't come back from. And so if you've, [00:02:00] engaged with him at all on social media, his green flying dude, you'll have seen that he's flying some of the most epic lines.
Matt Blank: That anyone has ever done. And, I'd like to know what he thinks about life in general and how he's able to reconcile all of the risk that it takes, to fly those lines.
Laurent Frat: Great. I think we're all on the same page here. this is going to be an exciting episode and I'm looking forward to chatting with Chris.
Laurent Frat: Hey, Chris. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks for coming on.
Chris Byrnes: Thanks so much for having me. I'm really
Laurent Frat: excited. So we brought you onto the podcast for a few reasons. You're a ferocious competitor. Both in the base jumping and skydiving environment. and you've been, opening up some spicy exit points lately and you're just absolutely slaying it in the terrain flying domain as well.
Laurent Frat: what we've done is we brought you on, to talk a little bit about what [00:03:00] it takes, and what it means to be a good wingsuit base jumper. And, I think that you have the same philosophy that we do and you're in it. For the right reasons, as far as like helping out the community and spreading positive information and helping others along the way.
Laurent Frat: we leaned on the mentors that we have and now we're given back and, I know that you feel really strongly about helping people. thanks for coming on and, let's do it. Yeah,
Matt Blank: let's jump in right away with, I'd like to know right off the bat. How you came up with the measurements to understand what good is because when I came up in wingsuit base and Skydiving, wingsuit skydiving.
Matt Blank: It was pretty subjective who was good and who was not good So first question, how did you come up with?
Chris Byrnes: I think like on a [00:04:00] completely base level, like what makes the best base jumper is whoever's getting out of it, what they want. if somebody's doing one jump from high nose and not even packing and smashing beers and they get to talk to chicks and say they're a base jumper, like they're better than, in my mind, than the person that is disappointed because they only got eight jumps in the day instead of 10.
Chris Byrnes: So regardless of what level you get to with, terrain or exits or competitions, like if you're not enjoying it. I don't think that's, like that's for me, at least in my mind, as long as I'm enjoying it, I'll keep, pushing it. That's on a base level, as a foundation. But then for the actual performance metrics, then it starts with the, for me, it started with the skydiving wingsuit performance flying format.
Laurent Frat: Now that was, PPC competition,
Chris Byrnes: correct? Yeah, and I was super [00:05:00] lucky because when on my drop zone, I had about a hundred skydives and I, bought a tracking suit. And then, at my drop zone, they were like, oh, okay, you've got a tracking suit, go talk to this guy. And he was a base jumper and I got introduced to the FlySight GPS unit straight away.
Chris Byrnes: And then the next weekend I was competing in the... Australian nationals in the tracking suit flying the fly site. and so I was introduced to that, that, performance flying format straight away. And what that gave me was, measured progress. So I was able to have, personal bests. So in that very first competition, I remember in the first round of distance, you've got to fly as fast as, as far as you can.
Chris Byrnes: And I got say, 700 meters over one kilometer of altitude. And then in the next round, it was a speed round. So I flew a bit steeper and went a bit faster. But when I looked at the data, I saw that. I'd flown in that speed round, I'd flown 1. 3 kilometers and I was like, Oh, actually I'm getting better drive from [00:06:00] that angle in the first one.
Chris Byrnes: I was a bit flatter and so it just from the beginning gave me that, feedback and I was able to, through trial and error, just continue me. To measure my progress and, be able to improve.
Matt Blank: So rather than shooting for certain numbers, what you were training towards in the beginning was just improving your metrics little by little.
Matt Blank: So without any reference point, just seeing if you could best
Chris Byrnes: yourself. Exactly. Because, the competition's only with yourself really. And, like I'm the youngest of 11 children and, I grew up in a big family and so I'm naturally competitive. And so for me to be able to have. a personal best it's, measured progress.
Chris Byrnes: and it's a good feeling, if you fly, longer than one kilometer for the first time, or then Oh, like 1. 3 and then two kilometers, and it encourages you and gives you direct feedback [00:07:00] on what you're doing and how, whether that's better or worse for your.
Laurent Frat: Oh, that's interesting.
Laurent Frat: Yeah. Like one of the things that I was talking to, with Matt about, before you came on was how, progression is really like a key. ingredient for all of us to get a sense of enjoyment and satisfaction out of base. And, one direction, can be, these online competitions.
Laurent Frat: And what we're talking about now is a sky Derby. And, I know that's something that you're very active with right now. Can you tell us a little bit, like what is sky Derby?
Chris Byrnes: SkyToby I guess is like the Strava of wingsuiting and tracking. So it's a platform where you can upload your GPS data and you can have a look at graphs, you can compare it to terrain profiles and then the tracks as you upload them, you can look at the graphs of your speed versus your glide, but then it'll, if you make the track [00:08:00] public, it'll automatically upload it into these various online competitions.
Chris Byrnes: And that's great because then you can see how you do compared to other people. You can, it keeps track of your personal bests. And then you, can see, because a lot of the people that I see, like preparing for base, they might do a lot of two ways and things like that, and they might be like, oh, I smoked that guy, so I'm flying fast.
Chris Byrnes: But they might have exited the plane a little bit sooner, or it's a bit harder to react to somebody else's body movements and, fly to them. Whereas if you're in a competition or an online competition and another person in a similar or the same suit to you is flying a kilometer further. You're like, Oh, what are they doing differently compared to what I'm doing?
Chris Byrnes: And I think that's what most
Laurent Frat: people like, from like a practical perspective. So like you're at the exit point, you turn on your fly site, it's starting to blink, you got signal. And then are you in that moment thinking, Oh, okay. [00:09:00] Like I want to fit into this category or I want to try to.
Laurent Frat: there's different formats, right? So you want to be like, there's the, feather competition or tell us a little bit about like how, which category you're looking at and, how someone can, get into it and the, format there specifically.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, for sure. So there's lots of different, online competitions.
Chris Byrnes: Like you mentioned the feather challenge and that measures how far horizontally you can fly in the first 200 meters. of altitude from the exit and that's really useful for being able to notice the difference from thermal lift or sinking air or tailwinds versus headwinds and it's a really good tool to be able to analyze then getting into shorter starts what is and isn't within your but, there's distance and speed flying competitions, and there's [00:10:00] skydiving competitions, and there's a lot of different, ways that you can look at the data and be able to, help that in making you a better flyer in the base environment.
Laurent Frat: Have you seen this, have you seen this, format, Matt? It's, called the feather challenge. it's legit, basically online competition about who starts the fastest. not only are you getting the numbers exactly of, your performance, but also, like, how you're, competing and how you rank up against other people in different suits, different exit points, different, weather situations, I would imagine.
Laurent Frat: you're at the top of that level. You are legit, good at starting your wingsuit. Yeah.
Matt Blank: And that's, something new for me. I have a question about that, it, seems, it sounds like what you're saying is that [00:11:00] this is a competition, but it's also just a way of us to see who might have come up with an aha moment in wingsuiting, who has maybe unlocked one of the keys.
Matt Blank: And so the question for you is, yeah. Are there, is there a lot of sharing of information at the top? if I go to Dennis Olson and say man, you set nearly a 200 mile an hour speed run horizontally, like how did you do that? Is there a lot of, sharing of information about stuff like that?
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, a hundred percent in all the competitions that I've gone to within base, it's a very friendly environment for sharing information. And even if the person. isn't conductive towards sharing information, the graph of their GPS of their run is public. So that's what I've been able to do is learn from other people's GPS tracks about, I can see from looking at their graphs what they're doing.
Chris Byrnes: And then they can look at my graphs and see what I'm doing. And it's like we're pushing [00:12:00] the sport forward together. And Maybe competition isn't the right word to use because you don't have to be competitive. A lot of people don't like competition, but what it gives you is measured progress and that's Such a good thing to be able to progress in the sport and to be safe.
Chris Byrnes: So even if you're not interested in competition at all, this is such a good way of being able to, at the end of the day, be safer in the base environment because you're understanding the range of your tracking suit. And the envelope with. Within which you can fly in
Matt Blank: the mountains. It sounds like this competition is actually more of a collaboration between the top flyers.
Matt Blank: And the ranking is just to identify who might have information relevant to everybody else. Maybe you can, fill in the gaps here. How do people collaborate on this platform to improve their flying specifically? Like you said, we look at the track, but [00:13:00] then what information do we glean from that specifically to improve our
Chris Byrnes: flying?
Chris Byrnes: one of the challenges is called the Kings and Queens Challenge. And that's, basically wherever you finish up after 30 seconds, it's drawn in a straight line from there back to the exit and what that distance is. So it's, basically how far away can you get from the exit in 30 seconds. So it's a balance between, flying glidey, which makes it the shortest distance between A and B.
Chris Byrnes: But if you fly steeper, you can build more energy, you're taking a longer path to get to that point. And what it is, it's perfect because it's training for World Elite League or World Base Race where the finish line is a vertical wall that you're flying through. if you fly steeper, you'll be able to build more energy.
Chris Byrnes: But if you fly glidier, you're reducing that distance in A to B. Through the tracks, and [00:14:00] specifically with a really good friend of mine, Yegor Orlo, what I learned from his tracks is you can start gliding, but then as you reach 1 to 1, you're tipping your angle forwards and you're reducing, oh sorry, you're extending the amount of time that it takes you to go through glide ratios, depending on your suit, but for race suits, usually about from 1 to 1 through to 1.
Chris Byrnes: 8 to 1. Which is allowing you to accelerate for longer. And so that way you get the best of both worlds. You're flying that shortest distance A to B, but then you're extending that amount of time that I call it the acceleration zone, where you're going through those glide ratios of your suit, where you're building that super terminal speed and super terminal is one of the original, if not the first, proximity flying videos that came out from the Norwegians back in the day.
Chris Byrnes: And that was that term is that a lot of people, and it [00:15:00] might be because of the feather challenge or they like flying floaty, they, hop off and they, never reached the full speed potential that their wingsuit has available. And, a wolfo or somebody that doesn't jump, they might say, Oh, what's terminal velocity.
Chris Byrnes: And you. You can say, Oh, if you're flying at a tandem or something, you might be going about 200 kilometers an hour. Or if you go head down, you might be flying about 300. It's a balance between the amount of surface area that you present to the air and the amount of air that's there to hit you. So there, there is no thing, such thing as terminal velocity, because it's always a dynamic relationship.
Chris Byrnes: the higher that you go in altitude. The thinner the air is and the faster you can accelerate. And then based upon your inputs, especially in the wingsuit, every input you make, you're sacrificing drag for control. So the more that you can reduce the surface area that you're presenting to the air, and the more that you can adjust your body flying to be able to do [00:16:00] smaller and smoother and more refined inputs.
Chris Byrnes: Then you're presenting less drag and you can build that super terminal speed. And it's, just from watching those videos and speaking to some of the Norwegians, it really, changed my perspective. And that's really helped me to be able to, build these. Really high speeds on base jumps. What,
Laurent Frat: I'm hearing from you here is that, the best strategy for the Kings and Queens challenge is to start off, get a good start and then progressively fly faster and faster So you're accelerating throughout your entire flight. maybe let's say we're both standing at the exit point and I'm want to go and do a good run. what sort of visual references would you suggest? Should I be looking at a certain angle? Should I just be thinking about how [00:17:00] I feel the air on my body?
Laurent Frat: What does that maximum speed? feel like in your wingsuit, are, you almost falling over the handlebars? Are you, how steep does the angle? Should it feel like, what are some of the things like that come off in your brain? We're like, oh, I'm going real fast
Chris Byrnes: right now. Yeah, the really useful thing with this and the beautiful thing about it as well is that it depends on the exit point that you jump from.
Chris Byrnes: So every cliff, you've got a usable amount of terrain that you can use to build speed. So some places like, at Brento, you can't fly too fast. And even they made a, different challenge at Brento for a 25 second speed race because people were chasing the dragon on the 30 second speed races and pulling low over the landing area.
Chris Byrnes: And, even now to do, as I say, at Saspadoi, which is a really popular place for doing the Sky Derby runs because the gondola goes directly to the exit point. And it is, the exits at roughly [00:18:00] 2, 900 meters of altitude. So you've got a little bit of thinner air, which helps with less drag. But even there, when you're doing really good runs, like you're, bottoming out.
Chris Byrnes: on the treetops and you're using the flare to be able to have a safe canopy flight and but for the flight during that thing like when you build when you're building that super terminal speed the wingsuit want like it's you're tipping your angle steeper so you're forcing the wingsuit Down because as you're building that speed, it's increasing your glide even just the subtlest movement of flattening out, you'll go from 1.3 to 2.5 like nothing. So that's where it's almost the feeling is, like you're trying to hide your whole body behind the leading edge. And you're trying to almost force the wingsuit to fly a little bit steeper. But what you're actually doing is stopping it with all of that speed from driving out into a flatter angle, which will slow you down.
Laurent Frat: You're fighting against the lift. That's a really good explanation that you had, by the way. [00:19:00] You're trying to hide your body behind the leading edge. That's a really good way of putting it. Is there any other, body configuration tips that you may have as far as what are you doing with your shoulders?
Laurent Frat: What are you doing? Is, are you thinking about your shoulders and your head? Or is that something that just comes naturally? give us a couple more tips as far as like your body configuration and how to fly fast.
Chris Byrnes: I think generally within the community, people focus too much on their body articulation because it comes secondary to following the right curve.
Chris Byrnes: So you could fly like with, bent legs and a lot of dihedral, but if you follow a good curve, you're going to get faster speeds. And that's what I see at World Wingsuit League. I see people flying with like really aggressive anhedral, configurations and like super duper, like strong people. but their body articulation is perfect, but they're, flattening out too soon and they're not carrying that speed through those angles.
Chris Byrnes: So there is little things... Can you just jump in?
Laurent Frat: [00:20:00] Sorry, a quick description for, the people who may have less experience dihedral and anhedral. Dihedral would be a more balanced position with your center of gravity lower than, your wrists. And, then, the opposite anhedral would be your wrists and, being below, your center of mass or, center of gravity.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, anhedral arms down and, dihedral arms up a little bit. for me personally, I just like to try and keep my arms level. but little things as well, like for example, when I used to fly, I used to be pointing my toes so hard that I would get cramps in my calves. But then when I looked at outside video of other people that were flying with me, I could see that I had a bend.
Chris Byrnes: From my hips to my knees to my foot and so from there I started focusing on tensing my quads to lock my knee and When you do tense your quad and lock your knee [00:21:00] you don't have to tense your calf You can have your foot pointed with a relaxed calf, but that tensing of the quad and straightening of the leg you can lose leverage from your core and it's helping to suck your body off the bottom surface of the wing.
Chris Byrnes: And a lot of people talk about getting instability and a word that I hear or a phrase that I hear a lot is people saying, Oh, I can feel the air coming over the top of the wing and I get unstable and there's always air coming over the top of the wing. But what they're actually feeling and talking about is that they're, doing that.
Chris Byrnes: They're sucking their body off the bottom surface of the wingsuit and they're removing a control surface that they're always used to relying on. And then they get unstable. And it's not that there's air coming over the wing and that's making them unstable. They just need to get used to flying on a smaller control surface.
Chris Byrnes: I
Laurent Frat: think that control surface is called the point of deflection,
Chris Byrnes: is it not? I'm not too sure on the exact [00:22:00] terminology with a lot of this stuff because the whole thing for my progression has just been trial and error. So I do something in a different way and then I see how that feels and then I see how the results are.
Chris Byrnes: And then I slowly, through trial and error, see what works and what doesn't. Yeah.
Laurent Frat: vocabulary or not, it's working.
Matt Blank: And, Loran, I think you're, talking about the point of stagnation is what I've heard that referred to as. And, if we're flying, let's say, flat and really dirty. the point of stagnation is going to be somewhere around our chest, and that's a really flat surface that we're used to feeling relative airflow.
Matt Blank: And so a lot of people feel like they're in control there, but as we do what Chris is saying and start hiding our body behind the leading edge, that point of stagnation becomes a very small point on a convex surface. And if you're not used to focusing on that small point and you're used to having, your chest or your, Midsection as this, [00:23:00] deflection point, then it can feel eerie.
Matt Blank: there's nothing at all. Like you're, there's no relative air to push against.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah. It's like you're burbling your body and you're, riding the knife edge of, hiding your surface area behind your leading edge. And, a lot of people like get discouraged, they go Oh, I got unstable and The, I, find with coaching or giving people feedback is that like positive reinforcement works. And the fact of the matter is, man, you don't get speed wobbles unless you're going fast. it's a positive thing, and then over time you'll learn to feel the control at those angles and you won't get the speed wobbles.
Chris Byrnes: But you have to push your limits to progress, and that's why it's good to do it in a safe environment within skydiving. So that then, that way when you approach base, you know your range, and you're never flying your suit at angles or doing manoeuvres that you haven't done in the sky. So you're not going to be approaching a point where you're going to be [00:24:00] losing control low over the terrain or...
Matt Blank: we want to get into how you've trained in the skydiving world to progress your base. but before we do, I'd like to go back to something that you had just said. and it is that the curve or the trajectory, if I'm understanding that correctly. That you're taking off of the exit point is more important than the body position that you take and if you could expand on that for just a second, I'd love to hear your thoughts because a lot of people focus on that perfect body position and it sounded like what you just said was it's more important the trajectory that you find you can be in an inefficient body position as long as you have a smooth trajectory or you can have You know, a great trajectory and, still, what do I want to say?
Matt Blank: You can have a great body position, efficient body position with the wrong trajectory, and it can be terrible. or you can have [00:25:00] great trajectory and it doesn't matter what body position you have, because, That trajectory is most important.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, so obviously the ideal thing is to have a good trajectory and good body articulation as well, but there's no point having excellent body articulation if you flatten out too early.
Chris Byrnes: So it's understanding all of the pieces of the puzzle, and how that all works together. And it's the same as, say, something like with packing. It's no point taking half an hour flaking the canopy perfectly if you're only messing up that work by putting it into the container messily. You've got to understand, the foundations of things that...
Chris Byrnes: Build towards performance and the order in which that goes and body articulation is important, but it comes secondary to the trajectory. So
Matt Blank: how are you understanding trajectory? What is the way in which you plan out a trajectory when it comes to wingsuit base? [00:26:00]
Chris Byrnes: when I look at GPS data, I relay, or I relate, or I look at where I peaked out my vertical speed and then what glide ratio I was doing at that time, or where I peaked out my horizontal speed and what glide ratio I was doing at that time, and then you start to understand the relationship all with you and your suit.
Chris Byrnes: of what glide ratios you're getting your best lift at, or then, getting your best acceleration, or then, once you go past certain glide ratios, the point at which you start to slow down. And that helps you to dial in the glide ratios where you're accelerating the most. And for me, for a particular speed run, Then that's where I want to draw out that time where I'm flying in between 1 to 1 and 1.
Chris Byrnes: 8 to 1 to allow my suit to accelerate and my body to accelerate for longer.
Laurent Frat: And now, for those reference points, I think also, [00:27:00] is there a visual reference points as well? Because like you're seeing those things on the computer when you go home, when you're going back to do your next repetition. Are you thinking, Oh, okay, like this was the point that I had, this speed that I want with the glide that I want, I want, that's going to be my visual reference point, or is it something else?
Chris Byrnes: Yeah. So I think it, like the way that I look at it as a whole is you can go down the rabbit hole with numbers and you can be on the computer and even with exit points or whether it's speed runs or exit points or whatever you can, get too deep in the numbers, but you can also go. down the rabbit hole with feeling as well and what I choose to do is use numbers to build feeling and so that can be Doing a run and then seeing where I could improve and relating that to visual reference points on a jump So I can be like I need to be flying here or here And then I can also use the GPS to help me to fly at the correct angles so [00:28:00] for a skydiving competition, I use the audible feedback from the GPS to be able to help myself to, have alarms, to be able to flare and hit the gates because it's just, just a invisible gate in the sky.
Chris Byrnes: So you're using audible feedback through headphones on the GPS to be able to time your entry into that gate perfectly. And then it's also speaking to me and I can configure it differently for different rounds. So for example, in. The distance round in the skydiving competitions, I, the GPS will be speaking to me in my ear telling me my glide ratio.
Chris Byrnes: So it'd be like 3. 2, 3. 5, 3. 3, 4. 2, but then in the background I can set up a secondary. beeping between a certain range of speeds. So it might be like a high beep at 200 kilometers an hour. So I'm flying along and it'll be quiet. And then as I hit 200, it'll be like, beep. And then as I progressively slow down to say whatever I set the low beep at, like one 50, it'll be like [00:29:00] beep, beep, bop, So in the background, that's giving me like a, essentially a stall alarm to make sure that I don't fly too slow to then be able to start losing my, lift. And, on a base jump, I don't really, use the audible feedback from the GPS a lot of the time because I can find it can be a distraction. But, where it's specifically for those King's Challenge speedruns, I listen to the glide ratio to help me to draw out that amount of time that I'm spending from 1.
Chris Byrnes: 1 to 1. 8 to be able to hit that perfect curve. And then I also do use the visual references from the terrain as well, once I build up familiarity with the exit point that
Matt Blank: I'm jumping from. Okay, so to package this up, the... scientific tools you're using are to start building the reference points for the base jump that you're about to do.
Matt Blank: And then the important part is to keep those visual reference points in [00:30:00] mind as you're, flying the line. As a primary focus and the secondary focus is to, match those angles with the proper body articulation to compliment the angle that you're flying.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, because if it comes to say secondary from just speed runs, if you're just flying terrain in the base environment, it's doing those speed runs or doing that skydiving training is helping you to understand your range.
Chris Byrnes: So you're able to, because. You're able to understand by feeling when you have speed to do a big flare or when you have speed to be able to glide over a ridge or you're able to understand that you're losing energy and that you don't have the speed or the glide to make it over a ridge and you need to pitch so it's using the numbers to build the feeling to help you fly terrain safer and with the body articulation as well it's that if you're [00:31:00] going to fly with a little bit of dihedral and that helps you to be a bit more stable then so be it if you're flying a really steep line and you're really focused on Having this perfect arms level or anhedral body position, you're going to sacrifice a little bit of stability, potentially, with your skill set.
Chris Byrnes: it might be better for you to fly with a little bit of dihedral to be stable while you're flying that, line, but then still be able to have lots of speed.
Matt Blank: how do you know, when you're looking at your, performance, how do you know whether it's a reference point adjustment that's necessary or a body position adjustment that's necessary to
Chris Byrnes: improve?
Chris Byrnes: I guess it's just a balance, and for everything that I've learned, it's through trial and error. And so try something different with my trajectory or with my body position. And then I look at the results and it's better or worse. And then I, just [00:32:00] progress through that sort of trial and error method.
Chris Byrnes: And then I'm building, but basically it's it's just building the skills skydiving to be able to know the range of your wingsuit. And so whether it's and that's the beautiful thing about the skydiving. format is it's the three separate rounds. You've got speed, distance, and time. So like minimum drag, best lift divided by drag for the distance, and then minimum fall rate, so floatiness for the time.
Chris Byrnes: And then so that's helping you understand your range of where you're getting the maximum speed, where you're getting the maximum glide, and where you're getting the maximum float. And so that's helping you to Fully understand your whole range in a wingsuit and that's what you're flying in the mountains.
Chris Byrnes: So you need to understand your
Matt Blank: full range. So it sounds like you're going through a scientific process basically of narrowing down variables to try and understand which variable is most important in that part of the flight to improve performance.
Chris Byrnes: Am I correct? [00:33:00] Yeah. it's for me, I see people that.
Chris Byrnes: wingsuit base jumping that are learning to fly their wingsuit in the mountains. And for me, that just seems crazy because I think if you approach it in the right way with some coaching or even some drills, or especially doing that wingsuit performance flying format, you can, you don't have to do a lot of jumps to be able to get to know the range of your wingsuit.
Chris Byrnes: And then you're a lot safer when you're base jumping. One
Laurent Frat: of the things that you just mentioned was, was pretty interesting is that you're using the technology to build awareness. I think that's really fascinating. one of the things in the advances, advancements that I'm really looking forward to is, is, the, reality that we're gonna have when we're, how to, heads up display with pylons or rings that we're going to be able to race through and compete against each [00:34:00] other.
Laurent Frat: And, this is something, that is going to really be the next step for our development as a wingsuit pilots. if anything was possible, and you could have any technology you wanted, what, would it be that, would help you take yours wingsuiting to the next level? Would you want to have a heads up display?
Laurent Frat: Would you want to have, metrics of like how much drag, is there anything that you're thinking about and wishing for right now?
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, heads up displays would be cool and interesting. Again, I think it comes back to that thing, though, of going down the rabbit hole with numbers or going down the rabbit hole with feeling and using the numbers to build feeling because if you're using a heads up display on a base jump, potentially it could be extremely distracting as well.
Chris Byrnes: whatever tools you have available, I think that you've got to, use them to build. Your skills in the skydive environment, but then also whatever tools you're using in the base jumping environment to, to ensure that's not taking [00:35:00] away from, your focus on, the, task at hand. I agree
Laurent Frat: with you there.
Laurent Frat: I, don't even like jumping with a full face helmet because, it takes away some of the feeling, like I'm all jump wingsuit skydiving all day with a full face, but when I'm in the mountains, I want to feel, I want to have all the sensory inputs that I possibly can. And having that air on my face is, that's my, my natural technology to, to, build awareness.
Laurent Frat: Did you, have something to add, Matt? Yeah,
Matt Blank: Chris, what do you, what would you say to the previous generation flyer who says scientific tools are the death of intuitive flying? I've heard that a lot from people from my generation, at least.
Chris Byrnes: that's why I'm super passionate about giving people.
Chris Byrnes: a process or a simple way of interpreting the data, because a lot of people are intimidated by it. They're intimidated by competition and intimidated by [00:36:00] GPS graphs and stuff. But if you can give them a simple process to, make it easy for them, then allows them to get some learning from it. Because regardless of the amount of data there, you've got to be able to learn from it.
Chris Byrnes: And, the thing is for me is I'm super passionate about the. competition and the wingsuit skydiving performance flying format because I feel that it like if people had, do that and understand the full range of their wingsuits, that it will prevent fatalities. especially in 2016, when I started base jumping.
Chris Byrnes: There was a number of fatalities from people trying to glide over ridges when they didn't have the energy to be able to do that. and it's, as simple as being able to do 10 sky dives and be able to understand the range that you would have recognized within the feeling within your body that you don't have the glide and the speed to make it over that [00:37:00] ridge.
Chris Byrnes: Let's get into that. It
Laurent Frat: was a very dark year to jump into the sport. that's definitely burned into a lot of our memories. about, being the most dark year in wingsuit base, you had mentioned, a couple of drills that people can do in the skydive environment.
Chris Byrnes: what,
Chris Byrnes: are those drills? For a start, this is the wingsuit performance skydiving format.
Chris Byrnes: So at the moment it's a window in between 2, 500 meters and 1, 500 meters where you do speed distance and time rounds. And so that's teaching you to fly as far as you can. It's teaching you to spend as long in the window as possible. And then when you get to time it perfectly, you flare. So you can come into the window to start the timer.
Chris Byrnes: You can flare up out of the window. And then kick it over and glide through the whole window. And Chris Gaylor is regularly doing over a hundred seconds for, the one kilometer of altitude, within the window. And so it's like a. [00:38:00] An average vertical speed underneath 40 kilometers an hour, which is just ridiculous.
Chris Byrnes: and then for the speeds, like you said, the people are getting average ground speeds over 300 kilometers an hour. And sometimes upper winds, obviously accelerating that. But it's, it's amazing the level of performance that is available with the wingsuits today. And for people where they're saying that, technology is the death of intuitive flying, I'd say that.
Chris Byrnes: The exact opposite. I'd saying using a bit of technology is going to increase your intuition. It's going to build your feeling. and it's going to allow you to be flying at a higher performance and like ultimately be safer in the base environment. So
Matt Blank: you mentioned these windows and these tools, and a lot of us, are familiar with them, but there are a lot of us that aren't.
Matt Blank: Can you talk us through precisely like what that dive flow looks like when you have that fly [00:39:00] side on what you're actually doing, from exit to
Chris Byrnes: opening? Yeah, so the thing I'm really passionate about is like helping the continuation of the sport because, sometimes at drop zones they can get frustrated by wingsuit pilots asking to get out three miles past the drop zone or whatever it is, but you can do a regular flight plan so you can hop out after the last exit on the plane.
Chris Byrnes: You can fly, continue on jump run for a little bit, take a right turn, and then simulate the dive into the window for the exit. and so it's pretty simple to set up a flight plan and to give somebody, a plan to fly, and then they can build their personal bests in those speeds, distance, and time rounds.
Chris Byrnes: And then when they go to try that again, and they beat that personal best, it's hey. You flew faster, or you flew further, you're improving, and then it's giving them some, glide ratios and stuff that they know within which they can fly and their performance level. Aside from that, [00:40:00] even just a dive plan of exiting and doing multiple dives and flares through a run, and then having a look at, the altitude that you can gain with your flare, and then the relationship of like how much vertical energy you're building, and then how efficiently you're translating that into horizontal energy.
Chris Byrnes: And then how efficiently you're translating that horizontal energy into a flare. That's building really good experience and building really good feeling for being able to flare in the base environment. Because I've seen people where they're say, used to flying quite fast and then they might be trying to make a certain landing area, or do a distance run and then they try to do a flare, like they have a lot of speed and then they stall the suit, they're in a, and they, can find it chute.
Chris Byrnes: From that configuration, but if they'd built the feeling through a bit of training, they would know that if they're already flying with slow speed on, a distance [00:41:00] run, that they're not going to have to flare as much to be able to pull. And so it's helping build that feeling just through a few simple drills.
Laurent Frat: I have been personally a bit lazy with the technology, to be honest. I've found similar progression with flying with top pilots. going out and, doing some dives and flares and being next to top level wings to pilots, and getting that visual reference of, making small adjustments within the flight to keep up or pass or, whatever, but staying with a tight with a, group of really with the group of really well performing wingsuit pilots, can also be a drill that's really helpful for developing that intuition and that, that feeling.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, exactly. There's, there's no perfect way. Like I think [00:42:00] for the progression as a whole, There's lots of different things involved and there's certain things that have worked for me, but there is people that are going to be intimidated by the technology and stuff as well. But it's utilizing the tools that you have available and whether it's technology offline with other people, I think if you can Put it under an umbrella of going that whichever path you take, if you're working towards being a better pilot, it's ultimately going to make you more capable and more safer in the mountains. And at the end of the day, that's going to allow you to have more fun. And so that's ultimately what I want people to be able to do is be safer and to have more fun.
Chris Byrnes: I think that we could
Laurent Frat: talk for hours about the details of performance flying and I think we've already covered quite a bit. if you don't mind, I'd like to backtrack a little bit and get a little bit more information about you [00:43:00] because we don't know a whole lot about you. what do you, what's your normal gig?
Laurent Frat: What do you do when you're not flying in the mountains? If you work in skydiving or you're a plumber, how does Chris pay the bills?
Chris Byrnes: I'm a carpenter by trade. And then, recently I've started getting into rope access work because, basically it felt a third of the base jumpers I met did that for work.
Chris Byrnes: And seemed like a good way to be able to earn some cash in a short amount of time, learn some skills on ropes that. Small amounts of it might be able to translate into mountaineering in the future and then, yeah, be able to work casually and have time off to be able to go on missions. What got you into
Matt Blank: BASE jumping
Chris Byrnes: in the first place?
Chris Byrnes: I saw videos on YouTube, man, and just instantly it just captured my attention so much and I just knew that was what I wanted to do with my life. And then talked about it for years and then eventually I went for a tandem to see if [00:44:00] I liked freefall. I loved it, but then waited another year and a half and eventually started a skydiving course and then it just, yeah, it's just slowly taken over my life from there.
Chris Byrnes: You
Laurent Frat: started skydiving with the intention of BASE jumping.
Chris Byrnes: Dude, man, I had goals written down about going to World Wingsuit League before I even started skydiving. Like I'd seen from the Facebook posts and stuff that you needed three years of wingsuit base jumping experience and 300 wingsuit base jumps to be able to skydive, to be able to compete at World Wingsuit League.
Chris Byrnes: And I'd had and then I started skydiving and I had 50 skydives and I made plans like, okay, if I do 10 skydives every weekend and then, I go to boogies twice a year during my time off and then... I'd write down these plans and make budgets and stuff, and I was just like, Dude, it's impossible.
Chris Byrnes: I'll be like 60 by the time I can get there. But slowly, just one step at a time, it was just surreal. eventually, I was like... At World Wingsuit League with Yoki Summer and [00:45:00] just living the
Matt Blank: dream. How was that, initial goal received by the people, training you how to skydive? You show up to AFF level one with a, a goal of being a, competitive wingsuit base jumper.
Matt Blank: I imagine you might've gotten some, cross
Chris Byrnes: eyed looks. Yeah, dude. I think that there's people in the community that... Obviously for, it's a dangerous sport or for whatever reasons, or just that they might be burnt out in their profession as an ath instructor or a tandem instructor or whatever, that they're going to give people some negative feedback for wanting that.
Chris Byrnes: But, I feel the exact opposite. I feel that if you care about like the sport, like even if it's just skydiving, if somebody comes to the drop zone and they want to be a, like a wingsuit base jumper. First, they've got to be able to come like a really competent, excellent skydiver. So encourage that. and encourage them to be able to learn about base jumping in a [00:46:00] methodical way, because if you learn about jump run, and flat flying, and canopy skills, and all these things, it's all adding up to helping you to be a better base jumper at the end of the day, I'd like to be the change that I want to see in the community and, encourage people when they come to the drop zone as fresh jumpers and say they want to wing, but wingsuit base jump. I say that is awesome, but let's follow the right progression to help that make it. Become a reality in a safe way.
Chris Byrnes: What does that
Laurent Frat: progression look like in a brief outline?
Chris Byrnes: I think that's where things have changed from the old school to the new school. So that's where I think that there's lots of things that you can do within skydiving to that are going to add up to helping you to be a better base jumper.
Chris Byrnes: And, the, one of the things is, once you do get to wing suiting. Is to do that wingsuit performance flying skydiving format to learn the full range of your wingsuit and it doesn't take too many jumps because you can be like in [00:47:00] a really you can know the full range of your wingsuit and then that way like you start base jumping and you can progress through base jumping and do slider down jumps and build the other necessary things that are involved like packing and getting used to different Feelings and visuals and decision making, but then by that time, once you've done some terminal jumps and you've done some tracking and you're ready to progress to wingsuiting, that is so much easier if you know exactly how to fly your wingsuit in the sky and you know the full range.
Chris Byrnes: To be able to do all of that base preparation and then put on a wingsuit and not be able to fly at 100%, it just seems crazy to me. doing the work in the sky first and knowing how to fly your wingsuit, it's just, one less thing on your
Matt Blank: mind. speaking of crazy, I'd like to jump back to you and ask, you've accomplished the goal that you set out initially.
Matt Blank: What continues to [00:48:00] motivate you to be on the sharp end of the sport?
Chris Byrnes: I just absolutely love it. For me, it makes me a better person. having the time off through the coronavirus and, spending more time in Australia, doing skydiving, and then being able to come back to the mountains, it's it sets my soul on fire.
Chris Byrnes: And I just love to fly. And I love to... Progress and see what I'm capable of and it's just amazing. Are you scared of dying? No, but I think that talking about death is extremely positive for me Embracing my own mortality has been the single most positive thing I've ever done in my life because it makes me live for people that are afraid of dying if you are super, super scared of dying in a logical way, you should be [00:49:00] completely stoked on being alive cuz you're alive right now.
Chris Byrnes: And so knowing that you're gonna die one day makes you live the life that you want. You go to your boss and you say, Hey, stuff you, I quit. Or you go and ask that pretty girl out on a date or you chase your goals because, You're alive and you only get the one opportunity to enjoy the power and beauty of your youth.
Chris Byrnes: and it makes you have difficult conversations, like even within my family, getting into base jumping and like writing a letter to them if I die. It's initiated some difficult conversations. But they've been really positive in the long term, because a lot of people wait till they're on their deathbed to be able to tell their family that they love them.
Chris Byrnes: Tell your family and friends that you love them right now. Live the life that you want to live. [00:50:00] It's, I think that's like a really positive thing that's come from me base jumping is understanding that... I could die tomorrow and that's why I'm going to live the life that I want to live today.
Chris Byrnes: I
Laurent Frat: know, that you say in your countdown to exit three, two, one dream.
Chris Byrnes: Tell us a little bit about that. For me, this is the dream. And within humanity, I think that there's an importance placed on last words. there's a famous outlaw in Australia from back in the day, Ned Kelly. And before he was hung, he was an outlaw and he had, he said such is life.
Chris Byrnes: And, people get it tattooed on them and things like that, but for me, every time when I jump, I don't know essentially whether I'm going to live or whether I'm going to die. So what I say before I exit is potentially my last words. And if I was to be able to [00:51:00] choose a one word message to humanity or to my friends or family, it would be dream.
Chris Byrnes: Let your imagination run wild. Anything you want, you can have it if you approach it in a measured way.
Matt Blank: That's interesting to hear somebody as calculated as you say that you don't know whether you're going to live or die on the jump, as compared to another guest of ours, rich web, who would. Almost say that, with pretty certain like terminology that he was going to survive on the jumps because he's calculated so much.
Matt Blank: So what leads you to say that and what is the probability in your head there?
Chris Byrnes: I don't mean it in a reckless way that like, Oh yeah, it's a coin toss and I don't know whether I'm going to live or whether I'm going to die. But I think it's an easy way for complacency to creep in or to a certain way that you're in [00:52:00] denial.
Chris Byrnes: If you're going to say 100%, I'm going to survive this jump because the, sport kills people that are beginners and it kills people that are, experts. And I think you've got a, no jump is worth dying for, but you've got to be able to be prepared that it could happen on any jump. And so for me, that helps me to be safer and to be better prepared with having my affairs in order and things like that.
Chris Byrnes: And it also helps me to choose the people that I jump with better as well because I've seen people die. I've inspected people's bodies and I've written incident reports. And I've had people that have died that have been quite close friends, but I didn't have their emergency contacts. essentially, I had to be a private investigator to work out who their parents were and be the first person to tell them that their son had died.
Chris Byrnes: if you take a little bit more, responsibility and understanding that this [00:53:00] is a dangerous sport and that you could die, it helps you to put things in place to make sure that your... Being responsible because to not have your affairs in order and to not have these difficult conversations with your family or to not have your friends have your emergency contact information, it makes what can sometimes be described as a selfish sport, a lot more selfish and reckless because if you do die, you're leaving a burden for those left behind.
Chris Byrnes: So I only do things that are within my experience level. I really try to find that balance between knowing what is and isn't within my experience level. And as you guys put it, when you get on the sharp end, it can be very difficult because you're venturing into territory that not many people have ventured into before or for opening new exit points that nobody's ventured into before.
Chris Byrnes: Now,
Matt Blank: there's something I want to dig into a little bit. I'd like to know. How you're [00:54:00] building margin, especially. On jumps where you're on siding the line. And I've seen a couple of lines that you've flown through some amazing social media, by the way, I follow the crap out of you, man. It's so awesome watching, the lines that you're putting down.
Matt Blank: And I've recently become aware that some of those lines were on sites and, I'm curious how you are building the margin into, an onsite line. And just for anyone that's curious of that terminology, I'm saying flying a line for the first time without previous practice or information.
Laurent Frat: So below tree line on the ground.
Laurent Frat: Rippin a sweet terrain line for the first time on site.
Chris Byrnes: to a certain extent, I am assessing as much information that I have available to me. one thing that I've been doing here in Switzerland is I'm [00:55:00] looking at, topographical maps. And there's a map here where you can look at power lines.
Chris Byrnes: So you can look at, and see if there's any power lines that are labeled on the map that are going to be within the lines that you fly. And so it certainly gives you a, and you can laser the exit, so it gives you a lot of information. Even, if you haven't flown it before, you have a lot of information that's available.
Chris Byrnes: But, I know my range, and I know the feeling of where I can fly in my wingsuit. And, even if it's on the first time of a line, I can be aggressive. And it's a, hard balance to fly. But, sometimes, I see a lot of people where... And a lot of people I feel have gone in trying to be safe in a way that they feel other people will see them.
Chris Byrnes: And to fly closer to the terrain isn't necessarily always more dangerous [00:56:00] because you're flying with more energy. If you're like at the beginning and you're flying like a hundred meters off the deck, if you stall your wingsuit, it doesn't really matter whether you're ten meters off the deck or a hundred.
Chris Byrnes: You might not be able to get your pilot chute out in time. So me being comfortable with knowing exactly what the range is with my wingsuit and then utilizing information that's available to me, whether it be topographical maps or cable maps or weather conditions and the apps that are available for weather now, and using a laser on the exit, and then assessing the terrain that I'm available to fly, then yeah, I do feel comfortable.
Chris Byrnes: to be able to, fly the terrain on my first flight, but then I can build reference points and build better visual awareness of the jump over time and get more aggressive on future flights. But sometimes you go down the [00:57:00] rabbit hole a little bit and I've done that especially on that Dreamlines jump.
Chris Byrnes: It's such a technical place to fly because of the start, because of the glide that's required to get over the line. How long the line is and because of the similarness of the grass slopes and the houses, it's easy to get lost in the terrain and then there's cables everywhere at the end of the line. So it's like I've built, like I've done five jumps off the cliff there and I've done two jumps out of the chopper there now as well.
Chris Byrnes: but. I've flown a line there to the right where I'm then flaring over terrain and then getting into it, flaring over power lines, getting into a trench that has power lines as well. And, to a certain extent, then you feel like it's, chasing the drag and, when is enough And that's when it's, I'm really grateful to be able to have the speed runs and the performance flights or the distance flights or filming other people.
Chris Byrnes: I've got multiple outlets where I can still challenge [00:58:00] myself, but in safer ways. And in any of those outlets, whether it's terrain flying or filming or performance runs. I can feel myself when I get to a stage where I'm chasing the dragon and then I'm lucky to have those different outlets to mix it up to be able to give myself some variety to
Matt Blank: So it sounds like rather than, the margin on some of these jumps being built in the numbers, you're building the margin in how at home you feel in a wingsuit and how at home you feel in that particular mountain range.
Matt Blank: Am I like characterizing that properly?
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, I think it's I'm not gonna go too crazy on the terrain. If I don't know if there's cables there, or if I haven't seen any video. But I think people can overcomplicate the process as well and they can get obsessed with setting checkpoints and like setting checkpoints can be good, but [00:59:00] then it's killed people as well because they've flown over a ridge at Brevont into a certain line in the morning and then they want to do that again in the afternoon and then they've died trying to fly over that ridge.
Chris Byrnes: And If they were trusting their feelings better rather than building a methodical process and trusting their checkpoints, then it maybe would have kept them alive.
Laurent Frat: Target fixation is, is real and, I've unfortunately been on a fatality load where that was the reason that just that they wanted to hit a target or hit, their checkpoint.
Laurent Frat: And, the conditions just weren't allowing it at that point. And yeah, they, lost the awareness of the air and, The sort of energy that they had and, we're focused on, the task instead. I think it's also worth mentioning that you hike some of the lines that you fly too. that's, another level of homework, like actually hike in the flight.[01:00:00]
Laurent Frat: And, for obstacles and watching the video, can be, real deceiving as far as like how steep it is, obstacles that are there, all sorts of things is, yeah. I think that's, Chris does his
Chris Byrnes: homework. Yeah, but at the same time as well, you can, do too much homework as well.
Chris Byrnes: And I think it was, Matt Gerties says, like terrain flying is quite easy. All you really need is spatial awareness and an understanding of flying your wingsuit. You can, make it, it's, complex stuff and there's a lot of different factors that go into it and you want to be able to take into account the information that's easily available to you.
Chris Byrnes: And, but the most important thing is to know your limits and know what is and isn't within your experience level. And another thing that I try to do is recognize problem patterns of behavior before they result in an incident. [01:01:00] And to be honest with myself and pull myself up on occasion if I start to see that I'm, if I'm getting away with jumps or getting away with certain things or behaviors, not to just go, yeah, that's okay and it was all good, but to go, hey.
Chris Byrnes: Do I have some room for improvement here or should I take a little bit of a step
Laurent Frat: back? That's interesting. I have my own, I have my own metric for, the way, the approach is going. It's something that I learned from Steph Davis and it's three strikes you're out or, three flags, warning flags.
Laurent Frat: And, I've used that quite often. it could be something as simple as. stumbling on the hike or dropping my gear or feeling ill, anytime there's three factors that show up on the approach or in the car, whatever on that day. I don't care what it is, I'm walking down and that's just [01:02:00] the, boundaries that I've set for myself.
Laurent Frat: I think that what you're talking about too is this personal awareness of, how you're feeling and how in your perfect personal performance for that day can be something extremely difficult too. this is, hard stuff to understand. Are there things that you look for in your own mind or in your own body, to take.
Laurent Frat: Account for how well, how perform, how well you were performing that day.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah. And what, some of the things that you said about those three strikes and things like it's, actually one of the things I most enjoy about base jumping is the, on the hike, I might have thoughts going through my head of if I die, what's my mom going to think, or what's this person going to say, or, what's the wind doing and all this sort of thing.
Chris Byrnes: And you have that. that monkey brain or that fear and worry in your head. [01:03:00] And it's I love that sort of self actualization or being able to move past that and go, no, I've done the research. I'm feeling good. I'm feeling safe and I'm going to send it. And it's a beautiful thing to step outside your comfort zone and overcome those things.
Chris Byrnes: And to. Even if you are scared, be able to know what is and isn't within your experience level to be able to fly. And it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful
Laurent Frat: thing. Do you always push through those boundaries or are there times where you're like, I'm going to just take it easy on
Chris Byrnes: this one? Oh, a hundred percent.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah. So one of the things that I've realized recently or like that I've learned more about recently getting into some higher altitude jumps is then doing high altitude jumps and then trying to do speed runs. And so the fatigue on the hike, it's hard to do a long hike and then to be able to calm down and stretch and then be able to [01:04:00] be in a full frame of mind to be able to send it on a jump.
Chris Byrnes: That's, it's really hard. And then I'll recognize that on jumps and I've walked down from jumps before. Where I felt that if I was going to exit, that I would have, all my legs are going to cramp or that I'm going to, I'm so exhausted that I'm not going to be able to be safe when I'm going to fly.
Chris Byrnes: And that's a hard decision to make, especially when you're looking at a four hour hike down and you're already exhausted and you know that if you jump up, jump off, you can be down in two minutes. But you've got to recognize, am I tired or, and you've got to build that into how you fly. So it's, yeah, absolutely.
Laurent Frat: I've recently had an eight hour approach to almost 4, 000 meters and was forced to gear up on a half a meter by half a meter space. Very stressful gear up spot to be, to say the least. [01:05:00] and yeah, I had these ideas about this, rip in line that I wanted to fly and, a big part of that day was just flying with the tools that I had at the moment and, I felt good, but, there was definitely some, adjustment of expectations based on, how the day had unfolded.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah. I think that's, it comes back to something we spoke at the very beginning about what makes the best space jumper. And it's, regardless of the line that you fly, it's amazing to just descend from a mountain in a wingsuit. And so knowing thyself and, knowing the, how you're feeling at the time, it's, it's super nice to just do a cruisy flight and a high parachute opening and enjoy the parachute ride sometimes.
Chris Byrnes: And you got to recognize sometimes, yeah, like when it's good to be aggressive or when it's good to fly, cruisy.
Matt Blank: and [01:06:00] that's a tough thing for a lot of, jumpers to do, going back to your, Life philosophy of, we're here now, let's, live as much as we can. there are certainly a lot of jumpers that take that to the next step and sacrifice, their tomorrow for the today's flight.
Matt Blank: And, so I'm, wondering like, what do you say to that person who is trying to find the balance between maximizing their life now and. Maintaining some kind of, view of the future so that they, curtail their now jumping to include possibly jumping in the
Chris Byrnes: future. One thing that really helps me is I imagine having a conversation with some of my friends that have died.
Chris Byrnes: And, say I had a couple of really good friends die in 2019. If I was able to just sit [01:07:00] down for 10 minutes and have a conversation with them right now, I'd be like, hey man, how's it going? And they'd be like, oh, dude, man, I'm so sorry I died, man. I stuffed up and I went in and I'm like, yeah, dude, man, you should be really sorry, man.
Chris Byrnes: I had to, look at your body with your mum, like she was really upset. Oh, dude, I'm so sorry. And I'd be like. Anyway, man, let me tell you about what's happened since you've been gone, Oh, dude, I went to China and I won this comp and, oh, I met a pretty girl and, oh, I did this awesome trip to New Zealand and then, Oh, dude, you wouldn't believe it, this virus took over the whole world and we weren't able to travel for ages and then, this happened and that happened and it'd be like, wow, man, I'm like, yeah, dude, so much has happened and it's only been two years since you've been gone, you missed out on so much, and that's the thing that sort of, I want to send it and I want to do amazing things, but I don't want to miss out on the future as well, and [01:08:00] it's that balance to find. And it's to think about what you're leaving behind as well, like no jumps worth dying for.
Chris Byrnes: And at the end of the day, nobody really cares whether you're ripping a sick line or whether you're just flopping off the mountain and having a super cruisy flight. Pulling it a thousand meters, like it's be around for a good time and a long time
Matt Blank: on that note. I'd also like to ask, undoubtedly there are some people that are just like you Watching social media and looking at your videos going that's where I want to be What advice do you have the people that are chasing the green flying dude man do
Chris Byrnes: it like flying is amazing It will help you to be a better person And, whenever it is in life, whether it's playing chess, or raising a family, or asking for a raise from your boss, life is special, and, [01:09:00] go for it.
Chris Byrnes: Live the storybook life that you want, because, it starts now, and life is beautiful. And if you want to end up, flying wingsuits in a technical way, then follow the pathway that's, there. And I feel lucky that I was, that I only started BASE jumping in 2016, because I was able to...
Chris Byrnes: Learn on modern equipment and learn with modern techniques. And even now it's progressed so much further since I started. And there's so many tools available to help you to. Be able to progress in a awesome way and to be able to take advantage of all the latest tools that are available.
Laurent Frat: We've, been talking a lot about the mental aspect of, wingsuit base and, these are all incredible nuggets. There's one technical thing that I want to loop back to, and that's the use of laser rangefinders. Cause I know that [01:10:00] you're well informed and diligent about your use of lasers. can you talk a little bit about, you've opened something that you deemed after Yoki's video, and his, helicopter line, you did quite a bit of laser range find, work with that exit point.
Laurent Frat: And I think you've also found another one that's even more friendly recently after that. Can you walk us through a little bit about what you do for opening an exit point? What you do with those numbers and, and the consideration that goes into that sort of process?
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, I still have a lot to learn with lasering, but I do use it as a tool to help me assess new exit points.
Chris Byrnes: but I take the numbers with a massive grain of salt, and I know from doing a lot of camera flying, base jumping, I know what I can jump over in regards to ledges in the first 50 meters. And I don't really like tossing rocks off exit points a [01:11:00] lot of the time, but... For certain jumps, if there's no one below and, that sort of thing, you can use a few small rocks to help you to see how far your launch is going to get you.
Chris Byrnes: but then using the laser as well to be able to determine, the terrain further down the mountain really helps you as well. For example, the laser that I have, it has Bluetooth, so it can connect to my phone and I can build a, terrain profile in a, minute. And then I have GPS tracks saved on my phone of me flying my wingsuit.
Chris Byrnes: I can compare it to those GPS tracks and then give myself an idea of whether jump is, possible or not. And I did that in, Saudi Arabia in 2019 as well. So I was able to, in five minutes. Do the homework with the laser to be able to compare that to the GPS, all on my phone to be able to say, yeah, this is within my experience level.[01:12:00]
Laurent Frat: Now, sorry, with that, the line that you're using to judge whether or not it's doable or not, is that a, an average? from your worst start to your best start, or are you using your best start or where does that line, come from for you?
Chris Byrnes: Yeah, so I have a few different gps tracks saved on my phone So some high altitude ones because with the wingsuit one that I really like to compare it to is like a speed run So where i'm carrying more energy through the start arc because then if I go oh even on a speed run i'd still be On the deck of the terrain, I know that I've got a lot more range than that, then for me, that gives me the comfort level to go that there's a lot of margin in the jump.
Chris Byrnes: but I'm not just looking at the numbers and going Oh yeah, the numbers say it's okay. I'm relating that to my experience level and my visuals and other work that I can do, say on like Google Earth or other topographical map, apps or websites to be [01:13:00] able to calculate the glide to the landing area that's outside of my laser.
Chris Byrnes: range and that sort of thing. So I use the laser as a tool, but I don't use it blindly and ignore the visual that I see as well. So it's
Laurent Frat: visual for you. That's interesting. I think we all have our little, things that we fall back on. It's what's more comfortable. you talked about, camera flying and what you can jump over.
Laurent Frat: I don't see the connection there. Can you explain that to me a little bit?
Chris Byrnes: Yeah. So with camera flying, generally the person that I'm filming will take the I want them to be as relaxed and as comfortable as possible that I don't want them to have to worry about me at all in their flight to, because if they're, if they have thoughts in their mind that I have to exit this way or I have to fly this way, it's taking away from them being safe.
Chris Byrnes: So I want them to be able to essentially run a solo [01:14:00] and I'll tell them if I'm going to backfly in certain sections or things like that, but for the actual exit, I'm usually exiting from. the secondary position. So they're taking the best point where it's good for them to launch from. And so camera flying has been rad because it's taught me to exit off a lot of different stuff, whether it's like flat rocks or pointy rocks or grass or different things.
Chris Byrnes: And then also then to be able to exit from things like further back or that I might have to jump over some sub terminal ledges or trees or things like that. And because it can really help me, especially on exits that are in like a bowl or a V. if I get their exact launch landmark of where they're going to launch, and then if I know that they're going to turn left, sometimes I can exit over the top of them, and say like exit from the right, but then end up sub terminal on the left to be able to cut the corner.
Chris Byrnes: And so it's really taught me a lot about being able to exit off a lot of [01:15:00] different footmarks. But then also to be able to really look at the terrain sub terminal below the exit point and look at different ledges or look at the, if it's in a bit of a bowl or if it's in a bit of a V to be able to go, like, how much can I cut the corner on the exit?
Chris Byrnes: And then those visuals have allowed me to really get a good idea of what I can and what I can't. Jump over and then exactly like how I'm moving in my start up
Matt Blank: moving on to some other equipment. I'm curious. What equipment are you flying? And why did you make those decisions?
Chris Byrnes: So at the moment, I'm with Squirrel for wingsuits and parachutes and containers and Like I've flown for Tony suits and Phoenix fly in the past And, like I've won competitions, like I've won World Base Race [01:16:00] and I've won World Wingsuit League in those different suits. So I have a real world practice and understanding of testing and flying race suits and winning competitions.
Chris Byrnes: And, I really enjoy to fly the Squirrel equipment because it gives me better results. And then... Most of all, just because I feel it's good vibes and, with the team and the, everything like that. And it gives me the right tools that I need to, jump safely in the mountains.
Matt Blank: Do you have a go to suit and a go to container or parachute that you like in and?
Matt Blank: if so, I'm curious, cause everybody's flying like the whole range of every manufacturer. And so I'm curious, what tool are you, stoked on at the moment?
Chris Byrnes: Man, if I was only going to be able to fly wings, one wingsuit for everything, it'd be the CR plus, I just [01:17:00] love having the most amount of performance available.
Chris Byrnes: And it's, stable at all angles and, I can backfly it. It doesn't have backflying inlets, but if you have decent body articulation, it'll backfly fine as well. And, you can do short starts in it. And, but I just like having that ultimate power, like in the flare and in the glide and in the speed.
Chris Byrnes: And it's just like, why would you drive a Ford Focus when you can drive a Lamborghini,
Laurent Frat: Man, you've inspired me to order a CR plus for sure. I was, in love with the 2016, Red Bull Aces, C, C race. That suit is still like one of my favorites. but, yeah, seeing what you're doing and how much power and the flair you've got with that CR plus, is it a CR plus base friendly version or is it, your full competition suit?
Chris Byrnes: so I've got with me on this trip, I've got two CR pluses and a C race. One's a [01:18:00] skydiving CR plus, and I've just been using that for performance records. And then I have a base friendly CR plus, that still is a weapon with, in regards to performance, but slightly bigger inlets, mega storage, and it's just a lot more comfortable for base and then a base C race as well.
Chris Byrnes: And I really liked that for filming. Like today I filmed a two piece tracking suit. And, you can fly with, anybody in it and it backflies. And, but it comes down to, to write tools from the, for the job. So even aside from brands, like what I tell people is find the balance between performance and ease of use.
Chris Byrnes: And what I mean by that is say a C race or a racing suit from a different manufacturer, it might be like, say a hundred potential performance points. But if you don't, because it's going to be maybe a little bit more of a handful to fly compared to another suit, if you're only getting 80% out of that 100 potential performance points, [01:19:00] maybe you'd be better off on, a suit that's, might only say have 90 potential performance points, but because it has a better ease of use, getting 95% out of 90 is better than getting 80% out of 100.
Chris Byrnes: So find that balance between ease of use and performance and get the right tools for the job. Yeah. the
Laurent Frat: things that you're talking about carry over to any manufacturer, as far as comfort go, can you expand a little bit on what comfort means exactly? Cause I think it means different things for different people.
Laurent Frat: Like for me, the, how tight it is in the sleeve, can be a real indicator of how much, available performance that I might have out of my race suit. and, but, I like it a little bit looser in the wrist, especially, and. Then, the amount of internal pressure that is maintained within [01:20:00] the suit can also be a comfort level, but is there any details that you want to share with us about comfort and like what you're looking for in comfort in a base suit?
Chris Byrnes: I think generally for people that like, one thing is just the level of surface area. And, the, for me with the, I, noticed difference now because I hadn't jumped the sea race a lot, before this summer, I'd only done it for. World Wingsuit League in 2019, but then I've done a lot more jumps on it this summer.
Chris Byrnes: And, the difference between the C Race and the C R Plus is, very similar. The C R Plus has a bit of extra surface area. it's, it's just a little bit of extra surface area to deal with if you're doing really aggressive turns or steep lines and stuff like that. And it's still comfortable at all those angles, but just for me, it's it's just a little bit extra to deal with.
Chris Byrnes: So I have to be a little bit more. precise with my body [01:21:00] articulation, whereas with the C Race having that little bit of extra surface area just makes it a little bit easier for me to be super nimble and agile. And that's why for other people, they might get better performance out of a Freak compared to a C Race because it's easier for them to access that performance.
Laurent Frat: I'd like to, did
Matt Blank: you want to jump in on that with something like to jump in. Back in time to 2016, 17, a lot of people were, flying or starting to fly the performance skydiving suits in the base environment. And there was a big debate going on about which was, quote unquote safer or least dangerous because we were trying to find a balance between getting increased performance, which was.
Matt Blank: arguably safer on the flight and, being able to manage the mistakes that one would make just as a human being slipping on exit, mistiming the flare so that your pull is difficult. Where do you find the balance [01:22:00] between, increasing the performance and, still leaving margin for error in those realms that the race suits make a little more dangerous.
Chris Byrnes: for me personally, I don't think that the race suits make anything more dangerous for me. I jump the race foam in the arms for every single jump that I fly. The only times like I've ever taken the foam out is when I'm jumping with two jackets and I have a lot of extra gear stored with me for high alpine jumps.
Chris Byrnes: But the suits are comfortable at all angles. And the most important thing though is I guess that's what I am most comfortable flying. Because I do a lot of skydiving. And I'm flying the race suits a lot. So for me in the base environment, it makes sense for me to fly the suit that I'm most, most comfortable with.
Chris Byrnes: and. There's been really good progression with the suit [01:23:00] technology, even on the race suits to make them more comfortable as time has gone by as well. And I've never had a drama with deploying or things like that, but it's going to be different for different people. And that's why it comes down to the right tools for the job.
Laurent Frat: Yeah, I know. I just want to jump in with my own personal experience. Like I feel really comfortable with the race foam as well. but there are a couple of moments. And I've definitely had some oh fuck moments, in deployment, with some line twist issues and, it's limited my ability to reach higher on the risers on after deployment, controlling body twists.
Laurent Frat: And, that I think is, maybe some of the reasons why, I don't always use the race, foam. I'm also, a new dad, too, so my, level of currency is a little bit lower, obviously, than Chris's right now. And I think that's, one of the [01:24:00] factors that I modulate, on my level of currency.
Matt Blank: moving forward, I'd love to know where the next goal is for you, Chris, where are you shooting for? Do you have, any, projects or, any, records that you're going after
Chris Byrnes: currently? Yeah, so I'm having heaps of fun in Switzerland at the moment, and even just on the drive home from the valley today, I'm just, Just every time I'm here, I'm just, my jaw is on the floor, just looking out the window at cliffs and going, Oh, I wonder if that's possible.
Chris Byrnes: Oh, I can catch the train up to Shinaga plateau and then I can hike across and laser that and Oh, look at those lines and lines and so it's I just, it just feels super fun to be surrounded by an environment that just inspires me so much. And there's so much to explore, to go out and find new jumps.
Chris Byrnes: So I'd love to do the time to do that. At the same time, I'm, [01:25:00] really excited with doing jumps, from the Eiger at the moment, to do these performance records because, it's such an amazing mountain. It has so much history with climbing and it's just so aesthetically beautiful, but it's like one of the best places in the world for doing, performance runs because it's,
Chris Byrnes: to accelerate. I've really been chasing the dragon there recently, trying for, these King's Challenge records. So a couple of days ago, I got to, 16. 06 meters in the 30 seconds. And I was super stoked because it was the first time anybody's gone over 1, 600 meters. And, I had the world record and 19.
Chris Byrnes: Later in 2019, and through that whole process, me and my friend Yea orbit, just constantly swapping and breaking each other's records and a [01:26:00] lot of other people involved in that process as well. And to give you an indication, like back in 2017, the Kings Challenge record was 1,436 meters. And even to this day in Wingsuits, there's only been.
Chris Byrnes: I think around eight people or, 10 or 11 people in history that have flown further than 1, 400 meters in a wingsuit into 30 seconds. But from 1437 in 2017, in 2018, then it finished at, 1548. So it just was like a big, gap, jump through that year. And then in 2019 it got to 1552 and then Yago finished on 1597. But all the way back in 2017, I had the dream of going I wonder if a mile would be possible in the 30 seconds, which would be like 1609 and a [01:27:00] half meters, and then I was like, oh, maybe if the wingsuit technology gets better through the years, that would be possible.
Chris Byrnes: and then I've been like thinking that it would be way off in the future, but then, yeah, for this year to be able to break that 1600 meter barrier. But it was so close, man, like 1606, and I was like, oh man, the drag of the GoPro, like it would've been the mile. But that keeps me hungry, man.
Chris Byrnes: and the other thing, so I'm shooting for that mile in the 30 seconds. The other one is to, break the a hundred meter barrier for a base flare. So earlier this year in, Sass Poor Dooey, I broke 90 meters for the first time of anybody on base jumps. So I did a 91 meter flare and then the next day, like a 94.
Chris Byrnes: 6 meter flare. and I'm really excited to, to do, to build that super terminal speed and really give it a crack to try and crack the 100 meter flare in the base environment. and, then just to build the total speed, I got 333 k's an [01:28:00] hour off the high Eiger a couple of weeks ago. And I'm really excited to, to try and beat that as well, because it's just for me, it's it's super fun for me.
Chris Byrnes: A lot of people don't get it, but for me, if you meet a little kid, the first thing they're going to ask you when they see a wingsuit is like, how fast does it go? And even for me now, even with the world record on it, it's I don't know how fast it can go because I know that it can be flown faster.
Chris Byrnes: And that's the sick thing about, climbing up a mountain, is some people want to, do these distance runs and all this sort of stuff, and for me it's sometimes it's you've got this beautiful, massive cliff face giving you this void, this empty space. That is a playground to go you've got that amount of terrain to be able to build how much that speed.
Chris Byrnes: So like, how much speed can you build? And so it just keeps me super hungry, man.
Laurent Frat: That's [01:29:00] funny, right? you'll meet somebody, who's never seen a wingsuit before. And the first thing that they'll ask, this isn't the kid, it's the adult is how long does it last? I guess it depends. If you're Chris, it lasts, not very long.
Chris Byrnes: Oh, I'm pretty good, man. Like the, wingsuits, they're pretty durable, man. And I take care of my gear, like that's one thing, like I'm a trash packer. I always
Laurent Frat: put wingsuits inside. What I mean is how long does the jump last? How long can you fly? and like you're, hiking up to the ecstasy board and, pulling your parachute and what, 30 seconds or
Chris Byrnes: something.
Chris Byrnes: Yeah. it depends how steep you fly. Yeah. But that's what I meant. This is one thing that I love. And so As far as I understand it, I'm the fastest self powered human being in history. Because I walk up the mountain, and then I jump off it. So there's plenty of people that have flown faster than me.
Chris Byrnes: for example, speed skydivers, there's world championships going on at the [01:30:00] moment in Russia. And a really good friend of mine, an American guy, Kyle LaPreece. last time I checked, he was in first place. And he was regularly getting over 500 k's an hour in the speed skydiving. But then they call it, though, when they advertise it, they're like, yeah, it's the fastest, non motorized sport on earth.
Chris Byrnes: And it's if it's non motorized, do it without a plane, you gotta respect what's giving you that, energy. Because I reckon the fastest people in history compared to the earth would have been astronauts. Because they've orbited the moon. And compared to the earth, they would have been going the fastest.
Chris Byrnes: And then you got like Felix Baumgartner, he went up in a hot air balloon. and jumped out from the stratosphere with a spacesuit on and break the sound barrier in freefall. But it was, for those people, it's like the rocket or the plane or the hot air balloon that's giving them that energy. But when you hike from the landing area, like the actual physical process that's going on, you're converting chemical energy from your legs to potential energy within [01:31:00] your body that you're then releasing as kinetic energy when you fly.
Chris Byrnes: And so every step of that hike, if it's a five hour approach, It's like squeezing a big steel spring, ehh, And then even that five hours, you're winding up all of that energy. And then in that jump, you're just releasing it. And every second that you fly is like 200 steps of energy bursting out of your chest.
Chris Byrnes: And it's a connection to the Planet Man because you're hiking up that mountain, you're winding up all of that potential energy, and then you're using the void that mountain presents. To be able to see how much energy you can release into flight. And I just find that beautiful.
Laurent Frat: I love that. Yeah. The full circle.
Laurent Frat: It's like a sense of liberation, very few other people get to experience. It's, it's something super special, in the paragliding world. There's this, hike and fly races are getting really popular, especially here in the [01:32:00] Alps, where, there'll be a start line and then you hike and you just, whatever it takes, you have to make it back to, to another point and, oftentimes like the fastest way is to fly, but sometimes it's just running or whatever.
Laurent Frat: And, I'm. Personally, really into the fitness aspect of, of climbing and hiking and flying. it would be interesting to see some sort of sky Derby format to incorporate the approach as well. That's maybe something that can evolve, in the near future. That's something that, that I would like to see.
Chris Byrnes: Dude, that's a really cool idea. And the cool thing about sky Derby is it's run by Alexander Koonin. He's a fellow jumper and he gives what the people want. So if you have a cool idea, he can make it happen.
Laurent Frat: Cool. That, we're starting to run out of time here and, maybe we can edit this out at, 2, 1 31.
Laurent Frat: Matt, is there anything else that you'd like [01:33:00] to, to talk about, or is there any way you would like to wrap this up? And if not, Chris, is there anything that you would like to mention before we wrap this
Chris Byrnes: up?
Chris Byrnes: It's been a really cool chat with you guys, and I'm sure we can talk a lot longer, even outside of the podcast, be nice to talk to you and keep this friendship going. But, Right on, man.
Laurent Frat: the, one of our goals with this podcast is really to give back to the community and to tighten up the circle a little bit and, circle the wagons in a way and share.
Laurent Frat: vetted information so that, there's a little less myth and mystique around, what it means, to be good, what it means to be proficient and safe and have best practices, be common knowledge. And, really thank you for, joining us and, contributing to this [01:34:00] conversation and you'll always be welcome to come back and share anything with us.
Laurent Frat: And, and we'd be happy to talk to you more
Chris Byrnes: about this subject. Yeah, for sure. And, just in case if anybody that's listening, feel free to hit me up on social media anytime. Like I'm happy to provide coaching for people, even if it's remotely, if you've got questions to ask about exits or. Sky Derby or GPS information like, or for even if you're not even a jumper for the progression that's involved to get into wingsuit base, feel free to message me.
Chris Byrnes: I'm super passionate about it and I love to help the community as much as I can. Awesome. All
Laurent Frat: of your social information will be included in the show notes so they can just find you there. And I know from personal experience, the online coaching. is very valuable and, Chris has a ton of information to give you.
Laurent Frat: And I know personally, even as an advanced wingsuit pilot, I've learned a lot from you, this conversation. And, [01:35:00] thanks a lot, buddy.
Matt Blank: Yeah. And I just want to add my thanks as well. a high tide raises all boats and undoubtedly you are raising the tide for all of us. So thanks for pushing it out there and all the best and nothing less.
Chris Byrnes: Sweet as send it till you end it. Cheers.
Laurent Frat: Wow. So Chris is, what a good guy, right? like super talented, humble, and, interesting, like dichotomy of, Super, regimented in his training and, his, analytical side to base jumping, but then also goes full send like, it's an interesting tight rope to walk. And, I feel like I learned a lot about, the mentality there and, something that I'm even like, going to apply to my, own mentality in a way of, looking at [01:36:00] things.
Laurent Frat: And, that was, super interesting. I know you picked up on it. Yeah, I
Matt Blank: really think that he's, redefining the Australian culture there. traditionally it's been very Sendi and, I think he's exemplifying a new mentality that is earn Sendi. You got to put the work in to be Sendi.
Matt Blank: And, if you want to, be at the cutting edge. doing this radical stuff, then you also have to put in an incredible amount of work, crunching numbers and training and being at home in the wingsuit and being at home in the mountains. And that will allow you ultimately to be even more Cindy than the people that are just hucking it.
Matt Blank: Yeah,
Laurent Frat: absolutely. And another thing that I think was a really good takeaway here was like, and something that I've learned in tunnel flying too, is the most performant wing isn't always like the most rigid, like a [01:37:00] perfect configuration. It's the one that you're comfortable in and able to access the right angle and line, and that was, that's, something that I think, really hit home for me.
Matt Blank: Yeah. Speaking to him, did you have any surprises come up, anything that you were expecting that, went differently when he started answering those questions? One of
Laurent Frat: the things that kind of surprised me and, I don't, maybe I shouldn't have been surprised is that he seems to have covered all his bases already.
Laurent Frat: there was no, no question that sort of put him off balance or something that he hasn't already examined inside first, some people can be a little uncomfortable when you ask them if they're scared of dying and, he's fully examined that and I think he's fully examined all the ins and outs.
Laurent Frat: And, spent time understanding how he feels personally about it. [01:38:00] And, I think that's a really good place to be, this is, a full commitment activity and, you shouldn't leave those dark unhidden spots unturned. And, he's clearly done, his homework on his, spiritual and mental side as well, which is, something, something super interesting.
Laurent Frat: Yeah,
Matt Blank: man, absolutely. Prepared to the hilt, is like the characterization I would use, and if, you're prepared, like he is from beginning to end, literally, from the beginning of, the equipment that he's using and how he's using it to the end of. Potentially going in on the jump that he's making, you really have the, the space to step on the gas, and put all of your energy down, put all of your, knowledge down, into that, into that one [01:39:00] flight, and if you don't have that preparedness, I just don't think you'll ever be able to even create the space to, perform like he does.
Laurent Frat: Yeah, absolutely. And, That self regulation piece too was, it was interesting, cause I think a lot of us can have a distorted perspective on our activity because a lot of our, besides our regular jumping buddies, what we see is online and it's always the rad epic shit, and even people like Chris Barron, sometimes, we'll, ease off the gas and, have a nice cruisy flight just to escape the mountain sometimes depending on how he feels and, I don't know.
Laurent Frat: Maybe that's just something that I'm using to confirm my own thoughts about, like I like to get radical, but sometimes I like to, just hike up a hill and have a smooth flight [01:40:00] away. Yeah. And
Matt Blank: on that note, it seems like he's really also, bring into the sport, the, go slow to go fast.
Matt Blank: Mentality, he doesn't just get a suit and jump it right off of a cliff, he wants to, experience literally experience every single piece of the flight envelope before he takes it off, and like you said, hiking up the line that he's going to fly. There's no slower way to go than that.
Matt Blank: But once he's experienced every single rock on that line, through the pads of his foot, then, he really is able to put down every ounce of speed into that line because he knows it.
Laurent Frat: Yeah. I have my own personal, thoughts as far as onsighting lines. what did you, think?
Laurent Frat: Do you, I don't want to judge his, approach. That's his, that's his journey. it's not something that's necessarily the right for right approach for [01:41:00] me. sometimes, like I, it's not something that I would recommend to my, close friends. but he, seems to be, at ease with that approach.
Laurent Frat: And, I think that if he's, if someone is going to take that approach, he's doing it in the right manner.
Matt Blank: Yeah, it's tough for me to say, because I came from sports, like for instance, ski and snowboard where you never did that. It was a pre ride re ride free ride where even if you had been down the mountain in that exact section before you still took the easier line first to pre ride it and then you rewrote it and then you would free ride it, and, coming to like rock climbing next, onsite free soloing would be the nearest thing that I could equate to that.
Matt Blank: And there are very few people that have survived through onsite free [01:42:00] soloing, and that even has the potential to be backed off of, you onsite free solo a route, and you come to a move that you can't do well, you can back down the climb and hopefully you've, climbed at the first section in a manner that you know you can reverse the moves.
Matt Blank: But there is absolutely no reverse in a wingsuit. So I don't know, I'm, not in his shoes. So I can't tell you like whether, it looks sustainable or not from my perspective, it seems. It seems on the aggressive end.
Laurent Frat: I think we both put it fairly succinctly that he is on the sharp end of the sport at the moment, and that's what it looks like, and, that sharp end is a difficult balance point
Matt Blank: sometimes.
Matt Blank: Yeah. End of the day, I'm super stoked that we had him on the podcast [01:43:00] and absolutely blown away at the amount of information that he's given us, as well as all of the stuff that he's done to push the sport forward. So congratulations to us for being able to put him on the podcast and get all that awesome information out of
Laurent Frat: him.
Laurent Frat: Yeah, that was cool. I'm definitely stoked on that. That sort of wraps up our episode for today. And, yeah, looking forward to the next one.
